Why the hate on lower cost amps. Particularly Crate and Behringer?

[LiquidMidnight]

have to keep in mind that recording technology wasn't exactly pristine back in the day either

While production wasn't then what it is now, keep in mind that Led Zeppelin IV, Steely Dan's Can't Buy a Thrill, Bowie's The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust & The Spiders from Mars, and Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon all came out around the same time as the first couple of Sabbath albums. And all of those albums murder those early Sabbath albums in terms of production quality.

 

[Big Hoss]

While production wasn't then what it is now, keep in mind that Led Zeppelin IV, Steely Dan's Can't Buy a Thrill, Bowie's The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust & The Spiders from Mars, and Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon all came out around the same time as the first couple of Sabbath albums. And all of those albums murder those early Sabbath albums in terms of production quality.

An interesting point I must admit. I always wondered about certain, sound quality issues with early "heavy metal", actually back when Sabbath made their first few albums I don't recall if that term had been applied yet, I think it was just called Hard Rock back then... But I digress. There is a certain, distinct, heavy muddiness in early hard rock albums, like Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath's early works, that I have always wondered if they intentionally went for that tone for the overall feel of it... Or it if was a limitation of the recording technology of the studios they were working with at the time.

Intentional or not, there is a certain dark, broodiness that comes across in those early albums that fits the genre quite well... And I would think that more than a few Ozzy / Black Sabbath fans would agree...

Even as recent as the "Heaven and Hell" album in 1980 (okay that WAS a long time ago I know...) Geezer Butler's bass was still rather thick, muddy sounding on the recordings. And I must admit, I have spent more than a little bit of time trying to figure out how to replicate that specific tone. I can get close with my Crate, but not dead on, and it's actually driving me to distraction.

I guess my point is, maybe some of these guys were working with sub-par gear, but they still made great music. They had lemons, and they made lemonade.

 

[Big Hoss]

Can we keep the discussion productive please?

 

[BassyBill]

Can we keep the discussion productive please?

Amen.

 

[B-string]

Hate to feed the OT, but early recordings were most times tailored somewhat for AM radio broadcast. When FM took over higher quality ensued.
ON topic I say if you are really that bothered by someone buying what they can afford, send them the cash to make up the difference for "higher quality" in "your eyes". In other words.........
I can see sharing honest experience to try and "save" someone from disappointment or equipment headaches, but really, how many polls on here have you seen that the poster buys AGAINST the poll? Just about every time.

 

[Big Hoss]

To tail on to B-strings late point... when I bought the Crate BX-100, I tried literally every sub $500.00 combo amp that I could find within a 50 mile radius of me. This was in 2002 or 2003 I don't recall now, but honestly, at my skill level at the time, I could get everything I wanted tone / power wise out of the Crate. The church I was attending at the time used nothing but Crate amps into a big Behringer mixer, QSC amp and I couldn't tell to save my life speakers...

I have shopped around other churches and noticed at least in that setup, Praise and Worship teams, where they tend to use bass combo amps, and they move at most 30 feet 3 times a week, I saw a LOT of Crate, Peavey, and Behringer amps in use. Some Fender. But nothing higher end than say Fender Rumble amps...

I can't compare to the current crop of amps to be sure, but I know back then, the Peavey, and Fender Rumble amps I just didn't care for the sound. Especially the Peavey TNT 115. There was one model of Fender Rumble back then I do recall having pretty nice tone and plenty of power, but it must have been the top of that line as my budget was hard set at not a penny over $500.00 and so that got written off almost instantly.

I won't lie, I would still even with everything folks have said, give a Behringer BXL3000A amp a serious consideration IF I could test play it at volume to see if it can do what my Crate does... The output options and features on it are very compelling...

Likewise, the Peaven MAX II 115 looks good on paper. I am not AGAINST that amp per se, but like the Behringer, I would have to play through it first, and at varying volume levels, to see if I can get what I want out of it.

For now, my old Crate rocks just fine, it can do FAR more than I am capable of, although I am progressing quickly. I guess my fingers are limbering up nicely...

If I had to replace the old Crate now, I think I might be a bit offended that Crate no longer offers Bass amps. I was very happy with this one. But I would likely try to keep my budget under the same point, $500.00, and get the features, and sound from a manufacturer that stands behind their products... Which at least there, is another reason I have an interest in Behringer, they have a 3 year warranty on new amps... I know lots of folks say buy a used amp, get more amp for your money...

What happens if I drop $350.00 for example on a used Ampeg with no warranty, and it blows something important? What happens if I drop $350.00 on a new Behringer with a warranty and it blows something important?

Either way I load up the amp into my truck, and haul it to a service center. With the Ampeg, I am out $$ not only for the trip to get the amp to them, but also for the repair. With the Behringer, at least during the first 3 years, I am only out the cost of getting it to them.

 

[FFTT]

There are people who buy or lease new cars every 3 years so they are never out of warranty.
Of course those people don't seem to mind a perpetual car payment.
The same thing can happen buying cheap gear, when you get trapped in a continuous cycle
of consumer grade mediocrity.

Others buy the highest quality possible after diligent research.
Because that product was well built and lasts a very long time, the long term cost of ownership is cheaper.

A well built amp should last 40 years+ with routine maintenance.

 

[Johnny Crab]

As long as they sound good for what I use them for AND they turn on each time I hit the power switch, no hate here. Examples....

Bugera(Behringer sister co) Nuke on the job:

BX1200 as a mid-highs monitor when FOH has great subs and good soundman.
Pic: Line 6BPXTL->split to DI and MXR 10 band EQ(lows cut to feed BX1200)->BX1200
The BOSE seen at the left is guitar/keyboard's rig.

Same audio path as above(Line 6->DI/split->MXR->BX1200). Our drummer also tends to run a hot bass feed so I use that to to hear/feel lows.

KX1200 left by son when he moved to college used as an mp3 player amp while working outdoors on a chicken home.

V-Amp at work to practice at lunch:

Son's and daughter's KX1200's, they used thru high school, left when they "grew up" and moved to college and beyond. Now they give us concert-level sound if we want it for movies or playing CD's or mp3 player. Movies are nicer. Chain is audio source->stereo 10 band EQ(behind the cabs)->left/right to amps.

 

[Anachronism]

Dave, with a budget of $300-500 you can get (and could get, back in 2002) a better combo than a Crate while still buying new with the protection that offers. Carvin and Fender both have decent combos in that price range. I bought a Carvin 100 watt, 15" woofer combo back in those years and I think it was a lot better than a Crate. I don't think everyone starting out on bass needs to drop a ton of cash, but if they're willing to buy something costing a little more than the absolute cheapest brand out there they'll probably save money and hassle in the long run.

 

[Big Hoss]

I can't speak to the Carvins as I wasn't able to play through one at the time. Only outlets I know of for them still is online... However I can say I did play through the 100 watt Fender Rumble of the time at Guitar Center, and the Crate sounded better, a LOT better. The Fender buzzed and rattled like an '83 Cutlass Supreme low rider thumpin hip hop...

 

[BassmanPaul]

Last night I played my first gig with a new band. The PA, especially for a small bar, was complete overkill! Who needs a 32 channel board for 5 mics and an acoustic guitar?? It took over an hour to set it up!!

But I digress.

the lead singer was complaining all night about not being able to hear himself. When he was turned up, the mic just fed back terribly. I asked what mic he was using and it was Behringer. Meanwhile my AKG hyper cardiod condenser mic was very loud. I was singing 6-8" away from it to balance the vocal levels. If you buy cheap gear you get cheap sound. My AKG had a list price of $600 originally. I bought two on sale for $119 from AMS. Then friends asked me to get them the same mic. I ended up getting eight. I consider these the best money I ever spent on gear.

 

[agedhorse]

View attachment 514825

Nice looking horse by the way

 

[High Camp]

I had a small European tour in 2010 (playing keyboards/piano, not bass), and I only had a Trace Elliot combo.
Now, the TE is great for bas, but not so for keys.
Didn't have a lot of cash and needed an amp pronto.
>> The Behringer did the trick, maybe not as perfect as a Roland for instance, but more than good enough.
It saved the day, so to speak.
Depending your situation, low-end gear can be of great help IMO.
And listen to others for info & advise, but make your own decision.
That's at least how I see things...

 

[DigitalMan]

Whilst I don't believe I've ever hated on either (but could be wrong about Behringer because their rack tuner sucks for bass) my entire reason for not liking either is how they sound. This opinion was formed long before I had reasonable means and is therefore in my opinion based on observation and not snobbery. If I discovered them newly today then my dislike would probably have an element of snobbery therein as much as I hope to rise above such things.

 

[MHensleyJr]

Can we keep the discussion productive please?

Kinda hard to do that when we're talking about crappy amps...

 

[FFTT]

In 1973 dollars when minimum wage was $1.65 per hour and a pretty good job paid $3.00 per hour,
I bought my 2nd upgrade professional rig for $1500.00 SVT with dual AlNiCo 8X10's , covers, dolly's the works.
My first amp was a Sunn 200s with a cloned Sunn 2X15 cab with Altec White Frames.

I mowed lawns, raked leaves, cleaned gutters, in addition to working in a hardware store from age 14.

The difference between quality and junk sometimes comes down to how bad you want it and how hard you are willing to work for it.
And PATIENCE.
I was already working in paying bands from age 17.

 

[powmetalbassist]

Just my 2 cents. I used to wonder the same thing regarding behringer, so I asked the tech guy at my local guitar shop and he said the following:

Most techs won't touch behringer, mainly because of poor repeat returns for repairs. Their warranty is great, but the Behringer stuff seems to be prone to failure. I won't touch it with a 50' pole. Better off to find something that isn't black listed by techs.

He suggested a few things, I ended up going with a peavey tour back then (2009?) now I have a GK mb500 mainly because I liked the sound, price and weight.

 

[chadds]

In 1973 dollars when minimum wage was $1.65 per hour and a pretty good job paid $3.00 per hour,
I bought my 2nd upgrade professional rig for $1500.00 SVT with dual AlNiCo 8X10's , covers, dolly's the works.
My first amp was a Sunn 200s with a cloned Sunn 2X15 cab with Altec White Frames.

I mowed lawns, raked leaves, cleaned gutters, in addition to working in a hardware store from age 14.

The difference between quality and junk sometimes comes down to how bad you want it and how hard you are willing to work for it.
And PATIENCE.
I was already working in paying bands from age 17.

Saving, working hard, saving, being patient. WOW!

This is responsibility. He bought gear that is still serviceable today. Plus it's pro gear with pro sound.

It required minimal maintenance and is of great value today. No false economy here.

Calling someone who follows this tact snobbish is a personal excuse for a lack of self discipline.

 

[hsech]

I don't think there is a lot of hate for Behringer and Crate. I think most folks have moved on to higher end gear. I don't have experience with a Crate bass amp, but I did have a very bad experience with a Crate all valve Blue Voodoo guitar amp. I had a Behringer 1x12 bass combo for a short while and thought it sounded weak and cheap. Once a bad rap get's started it quickly grows legs.

 

[Big Hoss]

Saving, working hard, saving, being patient. WOW!

This is responsibility. He bought gear that is still serviceable today. Plus it's pro gear with pro sound.

It required minimal maintenance and is of great value today. No false economy here.

Calling someone who follows this tact snobbish is a personal excuse for a lack of self discipline.

An interesting point of view... A counter point though...

When I bought my Crate, I needed AN amp to play through, and at the time the only thing I really knew about Bass amplification is the 10 watt practice amp I started with wasn't coming close to cutting it tone wise... It got loud enough for practice in the guest room of the house though...

I saved, and scrimped while paying divorce lawyers, and still managed to buy my BX-100, AND SR480, while keeping my home, my car, my retirement, and my dignity. No kids involved thank God, but still a nasty process none the less. I fully expect that as long as my needs don't surpass a 100 watt 1x15 combo, I really shouldn't "need" to replace or upgrade any time in the next, well before they jam my fat butt in a box and put me in the ground.

My interest in the Behringer amp I mentioned was entirely on specs on paper. My biggest frustrations with the Crate can also be said about say a 100 watt Ampeg, or current Fender Rumble. It's nothing to do with reliability or tone, and everything to do with inappropriately loud drummers, and a bit of OCD on how I want the line out placed. I would much rather not have my line out cable running from the front of the unit and snaked around back to get to the mixer, but rather start in back out of sight out of mind kind of thing.

That is one area on all of the amps I have seen, where I like the Behringer best, and yes I admit that is a completely cosmetic thing, but I think from a stage performance perspective, you would want the only visible cables coming in / out of the amp to be the instrument cable. Everything else in my mind should be hidden behind so as not to become a distraction.

What I am getting from this whole thread is pretty much an issue of perceived quality / reliability issues most notably with Behringer. Likewise I see a perceived lack of tonal quality from some users toward both Behringer and Crate.

There seems to be far less animosity toward Crate than Behringer, which is somewhat understandable. Crate being a St. Louis Music product designed and built by the same people that make the revered Ampeg amps tends to get less hate, I am guessing for fear of hate splatter hitting the beloved Ampeg.

What I find more telling than the input of folks on an online forum (no offense, but I honestly don't know you guys from Adam), is this...

When I bought my Crate, they were in pretty much every music store I walked into, ready, set up to demo, the hardest part about demoing and buying Crate, at least in 2002 / 2003 was finding the amp you wanted at a price point you were willing to pay.

I have seen all sorts of Behringer gear in music stores, but what I don't see is their Bass amplification products, not a single one... I see their GTX guitar combos and the Virtube guitar combos, not to mention any of a collection of Bass PODs, microphones, XENYX mixers U-Control audio interfaces etc... but not a single Bass amp. Come to think of it, not a single powered mixer either... Talking with professionals that make their living fixing this stuff, they say they don't see any more of the Behringer stuff than other brands coming in broken, but then again, is it because there is just less of it out there? I kind of doubt it. I have seen their Bass amps in use by local bands, usually coffee house type duo and trio bands. (Shops that have enough "stage" room for a guitar or two, a bass, and a drum machine, no real room for a real drummer, sorry guys...). I am not sure I would be willing to drop big coin on Behringer amps, especially without being able to test play one first, and I haven't seen the control / connectivity setups of all the amps / heads out there. Perhaps some other amp MFG will get the hint and put the ports in back...