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Why the hate on lower cost amps. Particularly Crate and Behringer?

#202
agedhorse said:
Dave, respectfully, it would be more helpful if you understood the details of this subject better before making the inaccurate comments that you have made. The subject of EMC/EMI is exceedingly complicated and full of critical details that really require an electrical engineering background to properly appreciate. Your statement that the FCC tests are weaker is just false. FCC radiated emissions limits are relatively similar to the EU limits but there are places where the FCC limits are tougher and places where they are weaker. The more significant differences are with conducted emissions, where the FCC tests are uniformly more strict.

A product passing the EU tests does not automatically mean that the same product will pass the FCC tests, and the same applies the other way around. Each set of tests have been developed with respect to the telecommunications spectrums in their respective regions, as well as the environments that the products are intended to be used in. This is why manufacturers are supposed to test to the appropriate standards, and the FCC has been quite clear that any product for sale in the U.S. with digital circuitry and a clock speed (or pulse train) of >9kHz must have the valid test reports before being sold. In spite of the warnings by the FCC, this product continued to be sold and in fact it appears from the FCC documents that the product did not meet the testing criteria of the FCC.

(Most) Manufacturers spend considerable effort and expense to abide by the laws of the respective countries. They design their product to meet the requirements of the markets the products being sold into, they test the product for compliance, they certify that the product conforms to the applicable directives and back it up with the appropriate reports and certificates as required. Not applying these laws uniformly across all manufacturers would give one who does not comply with a significant and unfair competitive advantage over those that do apply.

Here's a simplified document that IMO does a pretty good job of explaining the subject: http://www.egr.msu.edu/em/research/goali/notes/module8_regulations.pdf

(pages 8.1 and 8.2 seem pretty clear to me)
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Sorry, the reference came from the wikipedia entry about the whole Mackie V Behringer lawsuit. Which is yet another reason this sort of garbage needs to be dealt with in the courts and not in the court of public opinion...
 
#203
Big Hoss said:
Sorry, the reference came from the wikipedia entry about the whole Mackie V Behringer lawsuit. Which is yet another reason this sort of garbage needs to be dealt with in the courts and not in the court of public opinion...
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Yes, but there is also the court of engineering fact, and the engineering documentation provided by the FCC, available to ALL manufacturers, is quite clear... no opinion needed.
 
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#204
modulusman said:
Now your reaching again. Those 2 combos don't look nothing alike Unlike rippoffinger did to boss. http://www.theguitarfiles.com/guitarfile523.html Their are companies out their that are above board in their practices. Don't paint the whole industry as ripoff artists because you chose to support those that are.
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To my eye, while they are not the same, they are VERY similar in spec, and design. Some color difference, some control location difference. Kind of like the difference between the Mackie and Behringer mixers... I can't make any claims between internal circuitry as I haven't dug either of them apart, nor do I want to...

I already and REPEATEDLY granted that Behringer did step over the line with the pedals, they paid the fine, changed their products enough to stay out of court over those and moved on...

As far as the GB stuff goes, I can't make any claims based on specific knowledge of their products, HOWEVER all products / technologies like I said before are based upon prior intellectual property (knowledge).

I suspect GB is far more design from the ground up type stuff, and in turn ends up with a much more unique and higher quality product.

In all fairness, Behringer has won trade awards for their products as well...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#205
Big Hoss said:
To my eye, while they are not the same, they are VERY similar in spec, and design. Some color difference, some control location difference. Kind of like the difference between the Mackie and Behringer mixers... I can't make any claims between internal circuitry as I haven't dug either of them apart, nor do I want to...

I already and REPEATEDLY granted that Behringer did step over the line with the pedals, they paid the fine, changed their products enough to stay out of court over those and moved on...

As far as the GB stuff goes, I can't make any claims based on specific knowledge of their products, HOWEVER all products / technologies like I said before are based upon prior intellectual property (knowledge).

I suspect GB is far more design from the ground up type stuff, and in turn ends up with a much more unique and higher quality product.

In all fairness, Behringer has won trade awards for their products as well...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
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Well that is because Uli is trying to be respectable now. After years of selling rip offs and cheap junk at low prices to musicians who only cared about price his company became one of the biggest if not the biggest in the world. He then proceeded to buy smaller companies such as Midas, Turbosound, and Klark Teknik. He then used their engineers to actually make some decent products. He was all over the internet a year or so ago trying to change his companies image. When he decides to cut checks to all the companies that he screwed over then I might consider hios products again. I don't see that happening.
 
#207
Wow! Just Wow!

Why did you start this thread?

The B reputation is everywhere. Actually that you enjoy it and use it can't change this.

I've been in the situation where I tried to rationalize how good a product was that I could afford. It actually was as good in some particulars. In price it was an outstanding value. Did it last as long? One third the life of its rivals. It was the subject of more recalls than a current GM product.:)

While it performed at three test markers better than it's competition it's overall quality was substandard. It is now on the junk heap of time while it's rivals are still functioning. A used version of its rivals would have served me better. You get what you pay for. I also learned, "quality is where you find it."

We can't all afford anything at anytime. I believe that a little above middle is the best purchase place. Especially for appliances, washers & dryers etc. Instruments require more sensitive consideration. Asking all of us to justify your purchase is insane. Who are we to know what works for your budget? Who are we to know what meets your needs? Who are we to tell you it sounds less than perfect?

I'm writing this because many of our sisters and brothers are reading these posts. We all begin and journey through this miasma of gear while progressing in ear and technique. Self acceptance is key. Best way to progress in music is to know you don't know everything and to hang with, play with, and listen to folks who are better at it than us.
 
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#208
agedhorse said:
Yes, but there is also the court of engineering fact, and the engineering documentation provided by the FCC, available to ALL manufacturers, is quite clear... no opinion needed.
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Was only making reference in regards to my statement... And from the CONSUMER Point of View. For the most parts consumers don't give a hoot about what is making the magic inside the box work, as long as it works...
 
#209
chadds said:
Wow! Just Wow!

Why did you start this thread?

The B reputation is everywhere. Actually that you enjoy it and use it can't change this.

I've been in the situation where I tried to rationalize how good a product was that I could afford. It actually was as good in some particulars. In price it was an outstanding value. Did it last as long? One third the life of its rivals. It was the subject of more recalls than a current GM product.:)

While it performed at three test markers better than it's competition it's overall quality was substandard. It is now on the junk heap of time while it's rivals are still functioning. A used version of its rivals would have served me better. You get what you pay for. I also learned, "quality is where you find it."

We can't all afford anything at anytime. I believe that a little above middle is the best purchase place. Especially for appliances, washers & dryers etc. Instruments require more sensitive consideration. Asking all of us to justify your purchase is insane. Who are we to know what works for your budget? Who are we to know what meets your needs? Who are we to tell you it sounds less than perfect?

I'm writing this because many of our sisters and brothers are reading these posts. We all begin and journey through this miasma of gear while progressing in ear and technique. Self acceptance is key. Best way to progress in music is to know you don't know everything and to hang with, play with, and listen to folks who are better at it than us.
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In all fairness, all I knew of the Behringer hate before this thread was people talked a lot about failing equipment. And veilied "The B word" references... I noted that Behringer got dumped on in what seemed an undue amount compared to other MFGs products that I noted a good number of failure threads on... (Ampeg most notably). I was curious...

I wasn't really prepared for the response I got, especially on the legal issues. And to be blunt, i took offense at certain accusatory tone. I mean if we all had to thoroughly investigate every single company we do any business with before we did business with them, we would never do any business with anybody because we would be doing research using, wait no we can't use computers because the software companies and internet service providers are constantly stealing each others IP, so maybe drive to the Library, but virtually all auto manufacturers have violated some sort of IP, Antitrust, safety blah blah blah regulations...

As a consumer as long as the company I am doing business with isn't doing something that outright violates my conscience like actively supporting Genoicide, or nerve gassing orphans for their latest Youtube promo videos, I just don't see the big deal... Let the courts iron it out. Keep me the heck out of it. The engineering and design details of products and the similarities between companies products really aren't for me to say if it is a direct copy or not.

Oddly enough, if everyone says the Behringer XENYX mixers are direct circuit for circuit copies of the Mackie Onyx mixers, and they say the Behringer sucks, if it is a direct copy, wouldn't that mean the original Mackie sucks too?

I know I wasn't impressed with the one I used.

Mind you, the concept of intellectual property is a tricky one. If I sell you a basket of apples, are you not free to do with that basket of apples what you wish? Why then are other products different? And yes I understand IP laws need to be there in order to provide financial incentives for innovation, but how much of what we are talking about is all that innovative?

To argue that consumers and end users are responsible for what corporations do, and are embroiled in legal wrangling over says that Joe Blow down the street has to have a firm understanding of international IP law and government regulation before he or she buys any technology of any sort.

That mindset would absolutely cripple the entire global economy because nobody would be able to "morally" buy or sell anything without going out and getting a law degree and practicing law at all levels of the courts for decades, and it still wouldn't really be settled...

So no, I didn't go into buying a Behringer mixer thinking "I am buying a cheaper knock off of the Mackie". I bought the Behringer mixer thinking... "My voice sounds better at normal levels with this mixer, than that one, this one looks more modern than that one, the controls on that one feel a bit nicer, the effects on that one are nicer but I won't use them anyway, so I guess I will get the one my voice sounds better through..."

I certainly didn't go into buying a Behringer mixer thinking it would be the last mixer I would buy, or even an ideal mixer, but rather as a stop gap solution to keep me going at a reasonable level as I figured it all out, and for that, at least so far, it is serving me well. There is some overall and obvious cheapness to it. The sliders and knobs, pots just feel cheaply made, and like I mentioned before, the power supply gets way warmer than I would expect, or want it to.

The previously mentioned colleague's Mackie mixer has already been back for warranty issues, heat related. And I won't lie, I expect this Behringer mixer to die a painful and early death due to thermal problems at some point.

In that mean time it does serve to buy me time to learn more about what different companies have to offer.

Mind you, especially in regards to what folks refer to the "B" word, my experiences with them have been positive in relation to other equipment I have tried out, that does NOT mean I have been exposed to truly good equipment, it's just in the areas that mattered to me, the Behringer stuff didn't suck quite as bad as the others...
 
#214
Big Hoss said:
Folks, on the legal / moral stand of Behringer, I believe we are at an impasse. And that's fine, but I just don't see continuing down that rabbit hole as being productive. I would like to drop this line of conversation... I just don't see this being useful or helpful.
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As the Mod told you in your forum usage thread. You can stop posting in your own thread anytime.
In fact we have a term for it. Lowered
 
#218
Big Hoss said:
Can you give an example of Behringer's alleged Thievery and what evidence do you have to support that claim?

Doing a simple search for Mackie Vs. Behringer leads to the wikipedia page about Behringer, follow to the Legal cases section, and there seems to be the typical corporate urintation competition stuff. Corporations using lawyers to gain competitive advantage against a strong competitor. Seems about as valid to me as Ford suing GM for GM using 4 wheels and a steering wheel on their cars. Or Fender suing Ibanez for producing electric bass guitars with 4 strings...

If you think gear companies don't copy at least portions of others designs, you are simply ignoring the obivious as can be attested to by the abundance of 100 watt 1x15 combos, 1x15 2x10, blah blah cabs... You get the idea I hope...

The fact that Behringer has had a few legal cases against them only proves on thing. They are doing enough business to get competitors attention

If anything, some of the accusations I have seen leveled against Behringer amount to nothing more than extremely lazy reverse engineering of a product. Figuring out how to duplicate a circuit without really understanding what that circuit does is rarely a good idea.

A good engineer learns how a product functions, supposedly figured out how to do the same or better things, in a better way, and design the better product to be released to the consumer.

In the case of Behringer, and it is their openly and proudly stated goal to design and build equipment of similar to or better features than the competition for lower cost to the consumer. Peavey has the same stated goal. I am sure there are others...
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RE "alleged thievery", the story I heard at the time alleged that one night at the 95th AES conference & exhibition in New York in 1993, when Mackie first showed their 8-bus console, one or more folks stayed behind after the exhibits closed for the day, went to the Mackie booth, and opened up the demo console to take a peek under the hood and thoroughly document what they saw there by taking extensive photographs of the innards. Stupidity compounded the alleged thievery soon thereafter when Behringer's very similar 8-bus console was rolled out. The console's suspiciously identical parallels to Mackie's allegedly went so far as to include a "watermark' of sorts on the Mackie circuit board, which has been described as either the Mackie "Running Man" logo or a specific electronic design error that was unique to that console, which the perpetrators in their haste had neglected to remove from the photographs used to fabricate the Behringer PCBs. This allegedly formed the basis for Mackie's legal action, and the parties settled out of court, the basis of the settlement remaining secret to this day.

Here's another alleged example of Behringer's creativity. Take a look at Behringer's CT-100 cable tester, introduced around 2002, beside the Ebtech original from 1997 and you be the judge:

CT100-2.jpg
Ebtech.jpg


There's a fuller discussion of all this, with opinions and claims both pro and con, at: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

There you can read this and similar comments: [Beginning of quoted material]

"My name is Bill Wenzloff. I work in the Engineering Department of Ebtech (owned and operated by Sound Enhancements, Inc. Just wanted to clarify a few things:

"1) Our Swizz Army cable tester design was not licensed to Behringer

"2) We did not give Behringer permission to copy our Swizz Army Cable Tester

"3) Behringer did produce and is currently selling a cheap knock-off of our product

"4) How Behringer can live with the fact that they knowingly copied someone else's design is beyond our comprehension. We can only tell people the truth and hope they make a purchase decision based on the facts.

"5) If you have questions or wish to voice your support, please feel free to call me at 1-800-284-5172 ext 12 or email me at [email protected]

"6) By all means, let Behringer know of your dissatisfaction with thier practices via thier website http://www.behringer.com

"7) As corny as this sounds, we can only hope that hard work, honesty and quality reign supreme.

"Best Regards,
"Bill Wenzloff
"Special Projects Coordinator
"Ebtech"

[End of quoted material]
 
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#219
Bottom Octave said:
RE "alleged thievery", the story I heard at the time alleged that one night at the 95th AES conference & exhibition in New York in 1993, when Mackie first showed their 8-bus console, one or more folks stayed behind after the exhibits closed for the day, went to the Mackie booth, and opened up the demo console to take a peek under the hood and thoroughly document what they saw there by taking extensive photographs of the innards. Stupidity compounded the felony soon thereafter when Behringer's very similar 8-bus console was rolled out. The console's suspiciously identical parallels to Mackie's went so far as to include the Mackie "Running Man" logo on the Behringer circuit boards, which the perpetrators in their haste had neglected to remove from the photographs used to fabricate the PCBs. This formed the basis for Mackie's legal action.

But don't take my word for it. Here's another example of Behringer's creativity. Take a look at Behringer's CT-100 cable tester beside the Ebtech original and you be the judge:

View attachment 525640 View attachment 525641
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Nothing to see here.... move along. LOL.
 
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