Why the hate on lower cost amps. Particularly Crate and Behringer?

[modulusman]

An interesting point of view... A counter point though...

When I bought my Crate, I needed AN amp to play through, and at the time the only thing I really knew about Bass amplification is the 10 watt practice amp I started with wasn't coming close to cutting it tone wise... It got loud enough for practice in the guest room of the house though...

I saved, and scrimped while paying divorce lawyers, and still managed to buy my BX-100, AND SR480, while keeping my home, my car, my retirement, and my dignity. No kids involved thank God, but still a nasty process none the less. I fully expect that as long as my needs don't surpass a 100 watt 1x15 combo, I really shouldn't "need" to replace or upgrade any time in the next, well before they jam my fat butt in a box and put me in the ground.

My interest in the Behringer amp I mentioned was entirely on specs on paper. My biggest frustrations with the Crate can also be said about say a 100 watt Ampeg, or current Fender Rumble. It's nothing to do with reliability or tone, and everything to do with inappropriately loud drummers, and a bit of OCD on how I want the line out placed. I would much rather not have my line out cable running from the front of the unit and snaked around back to get to the mixer, but rather start in back out of sight out of mind kind of thing.

That is one area on all of the amps I have seen, where I like the Behringer best, and yes I admit that is a completely cosmetic thing, but I think from a stage performance perspective, you would want the only visible cables coming in / out of the amp to be the instrument cable. Everything else in my mind should be hidden behind so as not to become a distraction.

What I am getting from this whole thread is pretty much an issue of perceived quality / reliability issues most notably with Behringer. Likewise I see a perceived lack of tonal quality from some users toward both Behringer and Crate.

There seems to be far less animosity toward Crate than Behringer, which is somewhat understandable. Crate being a St. Louis Music product designed and built by the same people that make the revered Ampeg amps tends to get less hate, I am guessing for fear of hate splatter hitting the beloved Ampeg.

What I find more telling than the input of folks on an online forum (no offense, but I honestly don't know you guys from Adam), is this...

When I bought my Crate, they were in pretty much every music store I walked into, ready, set up to demo, the hardest part about demoing and buying Crate, at least in 2002 / 2003 was finding the amp you wanted at a price point you were willing to pay.

I have seen all sorts of Behringer gear in music stores, but what I don't see is their Bass amplification products, not a single one... I see their GTX guitar combos and the Virtube guitar combos, not to mention any of a collection of Bass PODs, microphones, XENYX mixers U-Control audio interfaces etc... but not a single Bass amp. Come to think of it, not a single powered mixer either... Talking with professionals that make their living fixing this stuff, they say they don't see any more of the Behringer stuff than other brands coming in broken, but then again, is it because there is just less of it out there? I kind of doubt it. I have seen their Bass amps in use by local bands, usually coffee house type duo and trio bands. (Shops that have enough "stage" room for a guitar or two, a bass, and a drum machine, no real room for a real drummer, sorry guys...). I am not sure I would be willing to drop big coin on Behringer amps, especially without being able to test play one first, and I haven't seen the control / connectivity setups of all the amps / heads out there. Perhaps some other amp MFG will get the hint and put the ports in back...

Did you ever mention what your budget is in this thread?

 

[Big Hoss]

Crate just sound like a...uhhh....crate

Seriously, my only experience with Crate was 25 years ago when I played almost everyday in the musicroom from the highschool I was on during lunchtime. The amp was a 12" combo with the name Crate on it, it had an open back and had this typical boxy/craty sound to it.

Just FWIW, the open back amps are guitar amps, not bass amps...

 

[Big Hoss]

Did you ever mention what your budget is in this thread?

Oddly enough, when I looked back at this thread, nope... Folks get the impression I am looking to buy, now, and am willing to go cheap. That isn't the case...

HOWEVER, IF I had to buy a new amp, say my current Crate died, or got stolen, I would be looking in the sub $500.00 range. And I would want something new with a manufacturer to stand behind it with a warranty. OR at the very least, used with a warranty for repair from a trustworthy shop. (Which rules out my local GC). I play for fun, not money. And I play badly enough I bet more people would be prone to pay me NOT to play...

I am looking to learn, so that when I outgrow my current Crate BX-100 I will have better knowledge on what to look for. I was looking to filter out the "they are cheap so they suck" and "you get what you pay for" replies as they for the most part offer no value to me.

Now I can respect the replies of "Owned one, and it rocked / it sucked because of XYZ" or "I see them in use in these situations and blah...". That sort of info helps.

I do own Behringer products, and while they aren't super fancy pants high end, they are every bit as functional and reliable as competing products, at a lower hit to my budget, and that is important. And I have yet to hear a single comment about Crate that defines why for example someone looking to buy a combo amp would buy say a used Ampeg BA-115HP (Typically sell for about $400.00 used or scratch & dent) instead of a used Crate BT-220 which has features the Ampeg lacks (typicall sell for about $200.00 used). Spec for spec they more of less match. I know resale value is hugely different between the two, then again, initial purchase price between the two were vastly different. Tone is a subjective matter.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the Crate is per se a better amp than the Ampeg. I don't know. I know folks here are going to say the Ampeg is better, but why is it better? Is there something beyond the look of certain amps and a company logo affixed to it that makes it better, or is this all marketing hype?

What I am trying to do is cut through the hype junk and get to the meat of the matter. Which is why, back in 2002 folks couldn't say enough good about Crate bass amps, but somehow magically in 2014 folks bash them on name and some ephemeral magic about other brand names? I don't get it.

 

[seamonkey]

SLM Crate and Ampeg were at a time built in the same US factory. LOUD Technologies bought Crate and Ampeg back in 2005. It didn't take LOUD long to totally ignore Crate. All of SLM USA Crate and Ampeg were fired in 2008. LOUD still owns the name.

 

[Big Hoss]

Yeah, my Crate is designed / built by SLM in the pre LOUD Technologies era. I'm not sure the LOUD buyout / merger, whatever it was was necessarily a good thing. Crate seems to have dropped Crate bass amplifiers all together, and their Guitar amp offerings are slim pickings these days...

I wonder if music gear manufacturing is going through a malaise similar to the U.S. auto industry of the 70's and 80's where they built decades of garbage relying on brand name recognition from former glory days...

 

[agedhorse]

As a general comment, when you say you play for fun and not the money, you should also factor in how much more fun it is to play nicer gear, a bass that feels good to play, an amp that sounds good and is "no hassle reliable". Sometimes, paying more increases the fun by a big factor, and isn't that part of the goal?

I understand the other side too, in pro audio it was nothing about fun. It was ALL about return on investment, and minimizing labor while maximizing the desireability of the system for rental clients.

Two sides of a similar coin.

 

[Justice]

Someone mentioned the Crate BT-350 amp head, one just popped up for sale on the Houston Craigslist. ( i am not the seller, just passing along info)

 

[chadds]

My comment concerned being fiscally responsible. Not buying what we can't afford.

To me, my opinion, a used pro level amp doesn't need the manufacturer to stand behind it. If it is working and was not abused and is 5-10 years old it will last another 20. The budget new gear is false economy. It won't last and can't be sold.
The pro gear is built to reflect the company's reputation for sound and quality.

B gear isn't in for repair because it's disposable.

We have different experiences here on TB. All ages and interests. Some of us hobbyists, some working stiffs, some national or regional pros. Some studio, some live.

There was no name trash when I was coming up. The next jump was used what you would now call vintage. Fender Piggyback Bassman, Showman and flip top Ampeg B-15s. See why I say quality? That gear still works. Still.

There is so much good used gear that if you stay out of Musicians Friend you will discover a world of other gear.

 

[seamonkey]

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Sweetwater is one of the few online companies I trust to do business with.

 

[Arjank]

Just FWIW, the open back amps are guitar amps, not bass amps...

True, but this Crate amp definitely had something like bassamp printed on it.

 

[FFTT]

Here's a short list of custom builders, mostly in USA.
Many are guitar amp builders, but just for perspective how many brands you aren't seeing at the big box and online retailers.

Guitar & Bass Amps

Reeves
Gries
Magic
Divided By 13
Two Rock
Carol Ann
Germino
Metropoulos Metro
Friedman
Fargen
Aiken
Komet
Fuchs
Reinhardt (used)
Blankenship
Suhr - Custom Audio
BC Audio
Red Plate
Dr. Z
Bad Cat
Matchless
Ceriatone
Allen
Vintage Sound
Viking
Ugly
Mywatt
Weber
Category 5
Three Monkeys
Magnatone
Glaswerks
Louis Electric

 

[Big Hoss]

Someone mentioned the Crate BT-350 amp head, one just popped up for sale on the Houston Craigslist. ( i am not the seller, just passing along info)

If I had the $$ available and a need for a head I'd probably try to grab that...

True, but this Crate amp definitely had something like bassamp printed on it.

I would be interested to see that. I am no accoustic engineer by any means, but I know that in order for a proper bass reflex from the speaker, a bass cabinet has to be enclosed and properly ported.

Here's a short list of custom builders, mostly in USA.
Many are guitar amp builders, but just for perspective how many brands you aren't seeing at the big box and online retailers.

Guitar & Bass Amps

Reeves
Gries
Magic
Divided By 13
Two Rock
Carol Ann
Germino
Metropoulos Metro
Friedman
Fargen
Aiken
Komet
Fuchs
Reinhardt (used)
Blankenship
Suhr - Custom Audio
BC Audio
Red Plate
Dr. Z
Bad Cat
Matchless
Ceriatone
Allen
Vintage Sound
Viking
Ugly
Mywatt
Weber
Category 5
Three Monkeys
Magnatone
Glaswerks
Louis Electric

I think you just brought up a HUGE part of the problem. Something I have been very concerned with myself. How do consumers get to know about, and have an opportunity to experience / purchase the best gear from a myraid of choices, when the choices are not where the consumers are?

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Sweetwater is one of the few online companies I trust to do business with.

I haven't dealt with Sweetwater, and what I have done with MusiciansFriend has been stuff they can't really get wrong. Cables, gig bags, Dynamic Mics. I didn't even know about Sweetwater until a few months back, but they seem to be pretty decent according to research with BBB among others.

My comment concerned being fiscally responsible. Not buying what we can't afford.

To me, my opinion, a used pro level amp doesn't need the manufacturer to stand behind it. If it is working and was not abused and is 5-10 years old it will last another 20. The budget new gear is false economy. It won't last and can't be sold.
The pro gear is built to reflect the company's reputation for sound and quality.

B gear isn't in for repair because it's disposable.

We have different experiences here on TB. All ages and interests. Some of us hobbyists, some working stiffs, some national or regional pros. Some studio, some live.

There was no name trash when I was coming up. The next jump was used what you would now call vintage. Fender Piggyback Bassman, Showman and flip top Ampeg B-15s. See why I say quality? That gear still works. Still.

There is so much good used gear that if you stay out of Musicians Friend you will discover a world of other gear.

Makes perfect sense. I will say that with what I own that is Behringer, I have friends with "Big Name Brand" gear of the same type, and close description, like my Behringer XENYX 1202FX mixer VS. a jam friends Mackie with similar specs. I see no operational difference, and my B has been fine since day one, his Mackie has been back for warranty twice, with the same power supply / transformer problem. My Behringer C-1 mic, I would hold up against pretty much any condenser mic under $300.00 for cleanly capturing MY voice. I have a Behringer XM8500 dynamic mic that stays in a box as a last ditch spare, in favor of Nady SP-5 or Shure SM-58 dynamic mics.

IF I had to base my opinion off of that XM8500, I would never do business with them again. It just sounds cheap. Nothing I record using it sounds anything like what the live sound is without major tweaking. It's overly bright, and tinny, and captures everything I don't want in ambient noise. But my mixer, U-control UCA-222 USB interface, and C-1 mic really are nice pieces of equipment, at least from what is in my price range that I have been exposed to. Which I think puts me back to the bigger problem other than is Behringer worth it. From my experience I am finding the people that hate Crate do so from a POV of "It's low cost so it doesn't count", which is honestly useless, unhelpful and invalid, disliking the tone they got out of Crate or the very few bad experiences with defective products, which are valid points. Liking or disliking tone is completely subjective, and I have noticed seems to change over time, so that at least tells me bassists XY and Z don't use Crate because they didn't get the tone they wanted. Totally valid, but at the same time, bassists A,B,C,D E etc... are happy with it getting the tone they want, and durability to boot. I think a LOT of that depends on the style of music and venue played. Praise and Worship bassists rarely need a 1000 watt head and 2 8x10 cabs you know?

The more I read about Behringer's amplifiers however, the more I am seeing a pattern in peoples dislike of them. However there are also success stories of people gigging, often with Behringer amps. Like I mentioned previously, I know I have seen several BXL1800s in use, mostly coffee house and BBQ shop gigs (I am in Texas you know!), same guys over several years doing the local circuit as it were, the bass player running a BXL1800, guitarist running what looks to be a GTX-30, mics and drum machine into a small mixer, and out of a pair of Behringer powered loudspeakers. Aside from instruments they probably have less than $500.00 invested if they bought used. I have never seen them have a problem with their gear, although I haven't been to every single show...

At the price tags of new however, I am looking at specs for $$, and Behringer really isn't "all that"... Assuming that folks are right, and with few exceptions, everyone seems to agree that Behringer clearly overstates their power ratings, such that a BXL3000A marketed at 300 watts is really 300 watts peak, and approximately 200 watts RMS. That amp sells for $349.99 on Amazon, while a Fender Rumble 200, which has a MUCH better reputation, sells for $399.99. Now I don't know about you, but I am willing to cough out an extra $50.00 (or more) to buy an amp that I know is a quality piece versus an item of questioned quality.

And yes, I know the Rumble series is not Fender's Professional, top of the line, but it DOES seem to have more than a few fans for its quality.

The point of used gear that folks make is of course valid. However, it is one not easily accepted by most folks. Do you see people going out and buying 10 year old used computers? What about 20 year old used Televisions? If not those electronics, why is buying used instrument amplification any less risky? The fact is that amplifiers seem to be one of the few remaining types of electronics that are commonly repaired and kept in service. For better or worse, mostly worse IMHO, most electronics are designed and built as disposable items. I would expect that in the years to come, as part of cost cutting, profit boosting measures taken by equipment manufacturers, more and more audio / music equipment will be going to the disposable model. There is already a pretty huge lack of qualified technicians to repair electronics, and that problem is only growing.

So coming from that perspective, maybe Behringer isn't too far off of where others are heading in the not too distant future...

 

[modulusman]

And some of us hate behringer because they built their business by being thieves but if you don't find anything morally wrong with that then by all means buy their crap.

 

[Big Hoss]

And some of us hate behringer because they built their business by being thieves but if you don't find anything morally wrong with that then by all means buy their crap.

Can you give an example of Behringer's alleged Thievery and what evidence do you have to support that claim?

Doing a simple search for Mackie Vs. Behringer leads to the wikipedia page about Behringer, follow to the Legal cases section, and there seems to be the typical corporate urintation competition stuff. Corporations using lawyers to gain competitive advantage against a strong competitor. Seems about as valid to me as Ford suing GM for GM using 4 wheels and a steering wheel on their cars. Or Fender suing Ibanez for producing electric bass guitars with 4 strings...

If you think gear companies don't copy at least portions of others designs, you are simply ignoring the obivious as can be attested to by the abundance of 100 watt 1x15 combos, 1x15 2x10, blah blah cabs... You get the idea I hope...

The fact that Behringer has had a few legal cases against them only proves on thing. They are doing enough business to get competitors attention

If anything, some of the accusations I have seen leveled against Behringer amount to nothing more than extremely lazy reverse engineering of a product. Figuring out how to duplicate a circuit without really understanding what that circuit does is rarely a good idea.

A good engineer learns how a product functions, supposedly figured out how to do the same or better things, in a better way, and design the better product to be released to the consumer.

In the case of Behringer, and it is their openly and proudly stated goal to design and build equipment of similar to or better features than the competition for lower cost to the consumer. Peavey has the same stated goal. I am sure there are others...

 

[jessicabass]

Starting out as a teenager for years i rocked a crate 4x10 with a crate 220H.
Never had a problem with it at all.
People care about image too much.

 

[jessicabass]

And some of us hate behringer because they built their business by being thieves but if you don't find anything morally wrong with that then by all means buy their crap.

If your going to say they are thieves for stealing design ideas then sir you need to look at yourself as a bass player and admit yourself as a thief for stealing ideas.

 

[chadds]

Can you give an example of Behringer's alleged Thievery and what evidence do you have to support that claim?

The B Line 6 Pod clone looked like a Line 6 Pod clone.

 

[Big Hoss]

Starting out as a teenager for years i rocked a crate 4x10 with a crate 220H.
Never had a problem with it at all.
People care about image too much.

I would tend to agree. Oddly enough I have had a couple of friends seek out and buy used Crate BX-100s after playing through mine (and me refusing to sell it).

 

[Big Hoss]

The B Line 6 Pod clone looked like a Line 6 Pod clone.

And an Ibanez Soundgear PJ bass looks a lot like a modified Fender Precision bass... How is that thievery?

Just for reference...

Line 6 Bass POD. Looks somewhat vaguely like a cross between a kidney bean, and a PS3 game controller.

Behringer Bass V Amp. Looks somewhat like a miniaturized cutaway design electric bass guitar body.
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The overall shape, controls, display, all completely different.

 

[danosix]

Snobbery has nothing to do with it. I don't use B* products for the same reason I don't shop at Walmart

My point isn't not using cheap stuff is snobbery - hating on cheap stuff is. I don't play either because I genuinely don't like 'em and they don't suit my needs, but I don't go on the forums telling everyone how ****y they are, because they're not - they're just cheap - if you know what your getting you will expect a cheap and adequate amp and you won't be disappointed. On the other end of the spectrum are the guys that stack up a $250 Behringer against their $2500 SVT stack and low and behold the Behringer pales in comparison - who woulda guessed?
he was asking about "haters" not guys who use better stuff and don't rag on cheap stuff.