Why the hate on lower cost amps. Particularly Crate and Behringer?

[modulusman]

Just a listing of forum postings hashing over the same tired, settled, and thrown out of court junk. Nothing new. However I wasn't aware that Ibanez and Gibson had been sued...

There is an old saying "where there is smoke there is fire" obviously Behringer was just being picked on and never did anything wrong.

 

[Big Hoss]

There is another old saying... You have nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide.

Iron clad innuendo is still just innuendo. To quote Joe Friday... "just the facts..."

 

[modulusman]

There is another old saying... You have nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide.

Iron clad innuendo is still just innuendo. To quote Joe Friday... "just the facts..."

And the facts are they have been sued. Some of the stuff they have did while not illegal is Unethical IMO. Mackie makes a line of mixers known as Onyx. Ripoffinger comes out with the xenyx mixer. That isn't even a word but it is close enough looking to the Onyx that cheap ignorant musicians will buy it. Why don't I buy Behringer, "because it is the right thing to do" IMO. Would you buy something from someone if you knew there was a pretty good chance that they stole if from someones house?

 

[Big Hoss]

So Mackie can "steal" a word, a name for a common mineral, and that's okay, but Behringer does something creative and comes up with a unique trade name which once assigned to a product becomes a proper name, and in turn a "word" no less valid than say Michael, John, Smithsonian etc.., for their product line, and just because they have a short letter combination in common that is somehow analogous to burglary and buying stolen merchandise?

Your logic evades me.

In a press release from http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/50/Sam-Ash-Music-Corporation.html

"In June 1997, Mackie Designs Inc., a manufacturer of sound mixers for the music industry, filed a lawsuit against Sam Ash, its subsidiary Samson Technologies, and German studio electronics firm Behringer Spezielle Studio-Technick Gmbh, for breach of contract, unfair competition, and copyright, trademark, and patent violations. In the lawsuit, Mackie was seeking $327 million in damages caused by the alleged manufacture and sale of Mackie products by the defendants, violating a 1993 dealer agreement with Mackie. The main defendant in the suit was Behringer which, Mackie said, had "a history of copying other companies' products and selling them as its own," citing an instance of Behringer manufacturing and selling a product based on one manufactured by California-based Aphex Systems, Ltd. (Aphex successfully sued and won damages of $1.187 million). According to the suit, when Behringer decided to enter the mixer market, it formed a "copying partnership" with Sam Ash in order to manufacture "knockoffs" of various Mackie products. In July 1998, Sam Ash and Samson Technologies returned a lawsuit to Mackie, alleging defamation by the Woodinville, Washington-based console manufacturer, alleging that Mackie "engaged in a concerted campaign to defame the reputation, business, and character" of the companies by taking "the unusual step of publishing its complaint on the Internet before trying its weak case in a court of law," stated a press release by Sam Ash. The company believed that the Mackie suit "was an unfair attempt to damage the business of Samson and Behringer and reduce competition in the industry." Samson went on to posit "that the purpose of the lawsuit [was] to obtain discovery of the trade secrets that have made Behringer products strong competition for Mackie."

Read more: http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/50/Sam-Ash-Music-Corporation.html#ixzz3KyvF8CrA"

Using the legal system to push your competition around, now THAT's unethical!

 

[modulusman]

So Mackie can "steal" a word, a name for a common mineral, and that's okay, but Behringer does something creative and comes up with a unique trade name which once assigned to a product becomes a proper name, and in turn a "word" no less valid than say Michael, John, Smithsonian etc.., for their product line, and just because they have a short letter combination in common that is somehow analogous to burglary and buying stolen merchandise?

Your logic evades me.

In a press release from http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/50/Sam-Ash-Music-Corporation.html

"In June 1997, Mackie Designs Inc., a manufacturer of sound mixers for the music industry, filed a lawsuit against Sam Ash, its subsidiary Samson Technologies, and German studio electronics firm Behringer Spezielle Studio-Technick Gmbh, for breach of contract, unfair competition, and copyright, trademark, and patent violations. In the lawsuit, Mackie was seeking $327 million in damages caused by the alleged manufacture and sale of Mackie products by the defendants, violating a 1993 dealer agreement with Mackie. The main defendant in the suit was Behringer which, Mackie said, had "a history of copying other companies' products and selling them as its own," citing an instance of Behringer manufacturing and selling a product based on one manufactured by California-based Aphex Systems, Ltd. (Aphex successfully sued and won damages of $1.187 million). According to the suit, when Behringer decided to enter the mixer market, it formed a "copying partnership" with Sam Ash in order to manufacture "knockoffs" of various Mackie products. In July 1998, Sam Ash and Samson Technologies returned a lawsuit to Mackie, alleging defamation by the Woodinville, Washington-based console manufacturer, alleging that Mackie "engaged in a concerted campaign to defame the reputation, business, and character" of the companies by taking "the unusual step of publishing its complaint on the Internet before trying its weak case in a court of law," stated a press release by Sam Ash. The company believed that the Mackie suit "was an unfair attempt to damage the business of Samson and Behringer and reduce competition in the industry." Samson went on to posit "that the purpose of the lawsuit [was] to obtain discovery of the trade secrets that have made Behringer products strong competition for Mackie."

Read more: http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/50/Sam-Ash-Music-Corporation.html#ixzz3KyvF8CrA"

Using the legal system to push your competition around, now THAT's unethical!

sigh. I'm done arguing with you. If you can justify in your mind that Behringer has always been above board and ethical so you can feel good about buying there knockoffs more power to you.

 

[KingCrimson]

Don't let your budget affect your idea of tone. Tone is not about $$ it is about what you hear. From personal experience I have heard expensive gear that was amazing, and stuff that I felt to be overprice. I have also been pleasantly surprised with some cheap gear, but most is usually what I expect it to be.

It sounds to me like you are justifying cheap gear, and while I get you (because I am broke my self) your 500$ budget can probably get you something much better than a crate. It took me a long time to get the rig I wanted, and it is still building up, but I am not compromising much and I try to get good gear on a good deal.

But no matter how broke I am I will not argue with the fact that, yes an SWR, Ampeg, vintage traynor will probably sound better than a Behringer or Crate.

But if it suits your needs NOW that's cool! If you are not playing live or in a band where you need the volume then everything is fine. It is when you start going out, playing gigs that these things start getting taken into account

I used to play, an ashdown Mag through two blue fur Yorkville cabs, and a 80's pointy bass with EMGs.

Decent gear BUT

When I went to study jazz I noticed my 80's metal machine wasn't cutting it, the tone was too aggressive, and it was too HOT for what I was doing and playing the majority of the time.

So I bought a USA Jazz bass

Then when I started playing in a 5 piece metal band it was my amp that came into question.

Not enough clean headroom, aghh. It was fine before, back when I was 17 and thrashing around, but I look back at recordings from those days and the tone SUCKS. Thin and overdriven and not in a good way, (this was also due to my playing ability at the time).
So I got a Crest power amp and EBS preamp that gave me virtually UNLIMITED clean headroom, and a sound that suited MY playing better. (no hate on the ashdown, it just wasn't flexible enough, amazing tone though)

Then it was the cabs, love the blue fur but damn, they just don't project the way I want. They are fine for heavy metal and punk gigs, but when I play Funk, they don't project in the right way for my taste.
So I got an Eden and it gives me the sound I hear in my head.

Then I got a tube amp on a hell of a deal, cranked it and heard "THE SOUND" of distorto punk bass. I could not get that with anything that was not full tube

You get it? It's not about going on talkbass and seeing all those with more money than brains talk about how they wouldn't know what to do with themselves or they would spontaneously combust if they didn't have a Fodera going through a thunderfunk and a Schroeder cabinet. Those guys probably spend more time fixing peoples teeth, advocating for some corrupt banker or designing industrial equipment than they do playing bass or gigging. Anyone who REALLY knows what music is knows that its all about the expression of the performer.

Man bo diddley plays on a cigar box, Parker played a gig on a plastic sax, Jaco used a beat up old fender (its not the bass of doom thats great its that jaco would make anything sound great) its not about the gear its about the performer.

But at the same time we all have the ever long quest in gear. By limiting yourself to 2 brands, or having some kind of "brand" loyalty before you have gone out and tested gear to its full potential is just foolish IMO

 

[Big Hoss]

Thanks KingCrimson, very well thought out layout of the subject without diving into spreading misinformation that's helpful.

I am not at this point trying to justify purchasing anything. I own what I own, and am not in a position at this point to purchase any new amp. I am trying to wrap my head around the hate that has been heaped upon these two companies in specific and to a lesser extent to other low end gear MFGs.

The trip down the rabbit hole yesterday regarding legal issues with one of the companies was actually quite telling to me at least about the philosophy of some behind their hate of certain brands, and that's fine... And I am not saying ANY company has always been above board and behaved in saintly ways. Companies are made of humans, and the way the law is written, if you are living and breathing, chances are better than good you can be found guilty of breaking some sort of law. Particularly in the area of Intellectual property. But I should just drop that for fear of sliding into a political discussion that really doesn't belong here...

Not knowing any of the political issues with certain mfgs I have purchased, owned, and actually like most of the equipment of theirs I own. But you pointed out several things....

#1. Tone, which has been beaten to death here, is not only not considered ideal with these brands equipment, it is also highly subjetive, and part of an artists overall style. Required tone and volume also vary greatly between styles and venues.

#2. Intended purpose. Different amps are built for different purposes. My 10 watt practice amp is for quiet solo practice, and it does okay at that, although I admit I don't care for the tone even with it cranked up all the way. I am wanting to play the Praise and Worship team scene, and maybe gig with a few friends doing BBQ cook offs, and family oriented beach parties. In absolutely none of my intended venues is the volume huge amps with big stacks are capable of appropriate. My Crate fits the bill pretty well for all of that. HOWEVER.... by the same token, a young up and comer, or a bar band bass player looking to gig bigger venues / shake the plastic giant beer bottles off the roof of the bar could use an SVT with an 8x10 stack for sure!

#3. Portability. To me, if / when I get to the point I am ready to go out and do said church gigs, or parties etc... I admit, I am not a young twenty something, and I am not in the best shape of my life. I would want something easily portable. A big 8x10 stack is NOT something I want to move. Then again my Crate isn't exactly a bag of feathers either.

Punch in the face loud tight tone and speed metal might not be appropriate for the musical talent working a corporate holiday party or worship service you know? HUGE space / weight can be good, and they can be bad. It all depends on your needs as a bass player.

While the likes of Geddy Lee, John Myung, Geezer Butler, Steve Harris etc... inspired me and motivated me to learn bass, I have no intention, or interest to follow in their footsteps, for one thing, if I were going to I should have gotten a LOT more serious 25-30 years ago about music and really dug in...

 

[stevekerekes]

I have a Behringer ADI-21 acoustic direct box that is extremely versatile...haven't seen much of anything else that resembles it. For $35, a great value for me. Amazing how little I read about all the little green boxes that resemble an Ibanez Tube Screamer. Much as we have difficulty accepting it, a new idea today is new for about 60 days. I have a friend trying to get a patent on a musical invention and it is VERY hard to get because of even vague similarities to something else that someone else has already patented. Sometimes you get what you pay for...sometimes you don't but one thing is for sure: with forums like this one and all the product reviews available, a poor product can be avoided. It seems to me that avoiding cloned products is somewhat like avoiding products made outside the U.S...maybe do-able, but not practical for most of us.

 

[jessicabass]

Well .... I did post my Crate BT-350 bass head, on the Houston Craigslist ..... it is a nice sounding amp, but I had to fix some crappy solder joints and a bad EQ slider, but a lot of Ampeg stuff of that era had the same issues too

Crate BT-350 is a killer amp.

 

[seamonkey]

Same old, same old rhetoric. Back 20 years ago when Uli made a clone of the Aphex - it was hardware.

There's a whole new world of modeling.
The "tone" is captured in modeling although many here will deny it.
There is going to be a whole new world of hate once people catch on.

Some companies actually certify the models that carry their names.
Others make a picture that looks the same.
Take a look at Peavey Revalver, a couple of examples

These are just skins, but you get the idea of what they're trying to sell. They wouldn't call it "Basic" or "Redhot" if they had certified models from Fender or Orange. You can actually buy certified models of Fender and Orange and others.

Not really picking on Peavey Revalver as it is many modeling companies, include little online modeling boutiques plugin makers will grab a well known amp and model it. They maybe can't afford the rights to certify it, but they can say it was modeled after the original, and make a skin that looks like the original. They just can't include the trademark in the skin. These plugins end up on recordings and on live performance stages more and more.

Plenty of SS amps are modeled also. And sure enough, many Bugera heads are modeled.

 

[CGremlin]

I can't speak as to Behringer's bass amps, but I would tend to believe that their design/QA philosophy would extend across the entire product line. Having said that, here's my experience with Behringer gear:

Xenyx 2442 mixer: Worked fine for a few months, then one morning when I switched it on, a small pop and smoke rolling out of the vents. In storage now, and haven't had the time to take it apart and look at it. Pretty sure it's something simple with the power supply.

MX 9000 mixer: Got it on Craigslist for almost nothing because it wasn't powering up at all. Got the (separate) power supply apart and found a number of blown caps, which was a little concerning (I'm guessing the previous owner might have plugged it into a 220V outlet), but I also found the voltage regulators were FAR, FAR too small for the power draw listed on the unit, and IMO the traces on the board really should be bigger. Replaced the caps, repaired a couple of traces, and swapped the regulators with bigger ones. Turns out the regulator situation was a known issue, and Behringer to my knowledge never made an attempt to fix it. This mixer is also in storage, but it was working okay the last time I used it.

Ultrapatch patch bay: So far it hasn't failed, but it's definitely cheap feeling owing to the cheap plastic jacks. Definitely not quality Switchcraft jacks here, and some of the jacks crackle a bit.

TL/DR: I'm not paying money for any other Behringer gear until I see for sure that they start using decent components and learn how to design power supplies properly.

 

[Big Hoss]

I can't speak as to Behringer's bass amps, but I would tend to believe that their design/QA philosophy would extend across the entire product line. Having said that, here's my experience with Behringer gear:

Xenyx 2442 mixer: Worked fine for a few months, then one morning when I switched it on, a small pop and smoke rolling out of the vents. In storage now, and haven't had the time to take it apart and look at it. Pretty sure it's something simple with the power supply.

MX 9000 mixer: Got it on Craigslist for almost nothing because it wasn't powering up at all. Got the (separate) power supply apart and found a number of blown caps, which was a little concerning (I'm guessing the previous owner might have plugged it into a 220V outlet), but I also found the voltage regulators were FAR, FAR too small for the power draw listed on the unit, and IMO the traces on the board really should be bigger. Replaced the caps, repaired a couple of traces, and swapped the regulators with bigger ones. Turns out the regulator situation was a known issue, and Behringer to my knowledge never made an attempt to fix it. This mixer is also in storage, but it was working okay the last time I used it.

Ultrapatch patch bay: So far it hasn't failed, but it's definitely cheap feeling owing to the cheap plastic jacks. Definitely not quality Switchcraft jacks here, and some of the jacks crackle a bit.

TL/DR: I'm not paying money for any other Behringer gear until I see for sure that they start using decent components and learn how to design power supplies properly.

Thanks for the input, THAT actually helps!

I am curious, what sort of use are you putting this equipment through? Do you use any sort of power protection / surge supressors / UPS systems?

I can give the following observations about my Behringer gears.

#1. PodcastStudio USB. The mixer is fine, but too stinking small, the headphones, are adequate, but not great, the mic, well.... I have given my opinion of the mic, and it's not flattering to Behringer. The best component of this is the UControl UCA200 USB Audio Interface. It works pretty much flawlessly. Installation on Windows 7 and 8.1 was easy peasy... I have opted to swap a Nady SP5 in place of the Behringer mic, and keep this around as a travel recording rig of sorts. Not for musical recording... (I have other AV interests as well...)

#2. C-1 Condenser mic. I use this for vocal recording / spoken work / narration. Vocal reproduction from this mic is fantastic. There are other budget condenser mics I have tried, Samson most recently, that just don't hold a candle to this thing... This is probably one of their best pieces.

#3. XENYX 1202FX mixer. The XENYX 502 that came with the podcast studio kit wasn't going to even come close to cutting it. I have had this mixer now for going on 6 months mostly trouble free. I am however admittedly concerned about how hot the power supply gets. It is an external wall wart type transformer and if anything on this mixer dies an unfortunate smoke releasing death it will likely be this thing... For just this reason, I have the mixer connected to a power strip with a switch to turn it OFF when I am done using it. I have a Pyle Pro headphone amp hooked up to the same strip for exactly the same reason.

#4. HPS3000 studio headphones. Comfortable fit, easy to keep on my head for multiple hours recording / editing sessions. Excellent sound reproduction. These don't "color" the sound in any way, they just spit out what is input to them, which makes editing my stuff a LOT easier. Again, I like these headphones a LOT. I own some AKG studio headphones and these whip the AKGs up one side and down the other.

#5. U-Control UCA222 USB Audio interface. Uses the same driver as the 200, and for all intents and purposes might as well be the same thing with a different color housing. No complaints. Works every time I plug it in.


For the most part I like the Behringer equipment I own, BUT I admit it is far from flawless. The best item from them IMHO at least that I have tried out is the C-1 condenser mic.

The XENYX 1202FX mixer for the most part I like, a LOT, but that power supply issue has me concerned. I am taking active measures to try to prevent it from overheating, but I shouldn't have to. I am half tempted to check the PN on the power supply for the XENYX 502 and if it is the same item, swap them to see if that one gets warm too...

 

[chadds]

A counter suit by Sam Ash? People sue all the time for baseless reasons. That blurb comes off Sam Ash's bio but says nothing about a ruling. The blurb means nothing because no resolution is stated.

The OP asked why the "hate." Have we covered it? From this thread people haven't seemed to have bad experiences with Crate. It appears that Crate is positioned as budget level line. The B is another story. It seems to be marketed as less expensive alternative to pro gear. Hence the disappointment when it doesn't perform. Of course all units haven't failed for everyone. Yet their reputation seems based on a consistent lack of expected quality or endurance.

 

[CGremlin]

I am curious, what sort of use are you putting this equipment through? Do you use any sort of power protection / surge supressors / UPS systems?

All at-home studio use. I keep everything on decent suppressors, and use UPSs on the computer gear. I change the UPS batteries every two years or so. The 2442 has an internal power supply, BTW. Also, the MX9000 power supply is an external 2-space rack unit.

It's interesting that I've seen lots of people with experiences similar to my own, but I've also seen plenty of people like yourself that have had relatively good luck with Behringer gear. Maybe they're just the Fender of the recording world.

 

[Big Hoss]

A counter suit by Sam Ash? People sue all the time for baseless reasons. That blurb comes off Sam Ash's bio but says nothing about a ruling. The blurb means nothing because no resolution is stated.

The OP asked why the "hate." Have we covered it? From this thread people haven't seemed to have bad experiences with Crate. It appears that Crate is positioned as budget level line. The B is another story. It seems to be marketed as less expensive alternative to pro gear. Hence the disappointment when it doesn't perform. Of course all units haven't failed for everyone. Yet their reputation seems based on a consistent lack of expected quality or endurance.

Yeah I think we've covered it pretty well.

 

[Big Hoss]

All at-home studio use. I keep everything on decent suppressors, and use UPSs on the computer gear. I change the UPS batteries every two years or so. The 2442 has an internal power supply, BTW. Also, the MX9000 power supply is an external 2-space rack unit.

It's interesting that I've seen lots of people with experiences similar to my own, but I've also seen plenty of people like yourself that have had relatively good luck with Behringer gear. Maybe they're just the Fender of the recording world.

Oddly enough, the Behringer mixer was recommended over the Mackie by friends that have been doing podcasting and music recording at home for the last 4 years or so with one... I did steer VERY clear of the models with integrated USB as I didn't trust something that complex that cheap...

I'm not saying your experience is unique, far from it, but I don't see a LOT of reports of failed / smoked XENYX mixers. I have heard enough about the Eurodesk series to know to steer clear of them...

One thing that DOES come up frequently with these mixers is that they MUST have plenty of room around them for airflow. But the Mackie 12 input mixer is prone to similar failure issues it seems...

FWIW, and correct me if I m wrong here, but to summarize what I am seeing

The hate on Crate:
#1. They are lower cost. There seems to be no shortage of opinion among folks here that unless your equipment is some obscenely expensive premium brand it's not worth using.
#2. Couldn't get the specific tone I liked. That's fair and completely valid. And does not apply to my situation. I actually rather like the tone I get from mine...
#3. Reliability issues. There were few but present references to equipment failures. Actually from what i have seen their sister products from the Ampeg line get more posts about failures, a LOT more...
#4. Weight. My amp IS a tank... and somewhat hard to move...

All in all the responses toward Crate that weren't negative based on snobbery seemed actually more positive or tone related. I am good with that...

The hate on Behringer:

#1. Low cost issue. I.E. snobbery. That's fine, just IMHO invalid.
#2. Political / Legal... As a musician, a vendors legal issues really don't have a lot of bearing on me... I would be a LOT more concerned if those legal issues were issues of things like intentionally making and selling known dangerous products and intentionally concealing the danger from consumers. (I.E. the Ford Pinto...) So yeah, IP urination competition between corporations as far as I am concerned is invalid.
#3. Tone. This is more of a personal speculation thing... Completely valid, but just because one bass player wants his or her tone to be one particular way.
#4. Reliability issues. This seems to be FAR more prevalent, and concerning. However I don't know what the total # of amps / devices out there are compared to other MFGs... Anecdotal evidence shows high failure rates, however at least released marketing reports say lower than industry normal failure rates... Kind of a hard call...

I would think that everyone would want to be able to afford top tier gear, but hey, if EVERYONE had top tier gear, then wouldn't that make the top tier the bottom too?

 

[BROCK WOOD]

I am not a hater. Behringer helped get me where I am. Once capable of moving
on up to better equipment: I did! I had a 12 ch & a 20 ch mixer. The 12 failed
& I gave the 20 away. Mackie has a really good name going - but my Carvins are
doing very well - just mixers in my response. I'll keep my Crown amps & JBL
speakers for final delivery!

 

[dieselman]

The End?

 

[modulusman]

Oddly enough, the Behringer mixer was recommended over the Mackie by friends that have been doing podcasting and music recording at home for the last 4 years or so with one... I did steer VERY clear of the models with integrated USB as I didn't trust something that complex that cheap...

I'm not saying your experience is unique, far from it, but I don't see a LOT of reports of failed / smoked XENYX mixers. I have heard enough about the Eurodesk series to know to steer clear of them...

One thing that DOES come up frequently with these mixers is that they MUST have plenty of room around them for airflow. But the Mackie 12 input mixer is prone to similar failure issues it seems...

FWIW, and correct me if I m wrong here, but to summarize what I am seeing

The hate on Crate:
#1. They are lower cost. There seems to be no shortage of opinion among folks here that unless your equipment is some obscenely expensive premium brand it's not worth using.
#2. Couldn't get the specific tone I liked. That's fair and completely valid. And does not apply to my situation. I actually rather like the tone I get from mine...
#3. Reliability issues. There were few but present references to equipment failures. Actually from what i have seen their sister products from the Ampeg line get more posts about failures, a LOT more...
#4. Weight. My amp IS a tank... and somewhat hard to move...

All in all the responses toward Crate that weren't negative based on snobbery seemed actually more positive or tone related. I am good with that...

The hate on Behringer:

#1. Low cost issue. I.E. snobbery. That's fine, just IMHO invalid.
#2. Political / Legal... As a musician, a vendors legal issues really don't have a lot of bearing on me... I would be a LOT more concerned if those legal issues were issues of things like intentionally making and selling known dangerous products and intentionally concealing the danger from consumers. (I.E. the Ford Pinto...) So yeah, IP urination competition between corporations as far as I am concerned is invalid.
#3. Tone. This is more of a personal speculation thing... Completely valid, but just because one bass player wants his or her tone to be one particular way.
#4. Reliability issues. This seems to be FAR more prevalent, and concerning. However I don't know what the total # of amps / devices out there are compared to other MFGs... Anecdotal evidence shows high failure rates, however at least released marketing reports say lower than industry normal failure rates... Kind of a hard call...

I would think that everyone would want to be able to afford top tier gear, but hey, if EVERYONE had top tier gear, then wouldn't that make the top tier the bottom too?

Here is some more reading for you. Invalid Link Removed Of course I'm sure the FCC was just picking on them for no reason.

 

[dincz]

There is an old saying "where there is smoke there is fire" obviously Behringer was just being picked on and never did anything wrong.

Yes, a very dangerous old saying. Most countries' legal systems moved on from there a long time ago.