Why the hate on lower cost amps. Particularly Crate and Behringer?

[Big Hoss]

You get it...

 

[danosix]

There's no shame in being broke, but don't expect to gain much respect for being cheap.

Be it intended or not, being cheap sends a message to others than you really don't take your craft seriously and that in turn translates to others not taking you seriously as a musician or artist.

I have to respond because I sort of feel the same way. If you play REALLY, OBVIOUSLY CHEAP **** than you project an image of not caring about your craft and probably don't sound very good either. However, once you get into anything even vaguely decent (like a higher end Crate or Behringer) and a better Squire very few people will ever notice you're not playing the good stuff. Yeah, a few musicians in the audience will notice but even they will be just as likely to "hear" based on the name badge or size of the amp than the actual sound.
I don't like when musicians I'm on stage with are playing absolute garbage, but my old singer/rhythm guitar player got as more compliments on his stock black affinity strat, than my American G&L or vintage PBass ever got - and I got more compliments on my sound when I was playing through a Peavey cab than I ever do with my Ampeg. Someone elsewhere said something about "as long as you're not too loud and sound lower than the guitar people will think you rock." I think he was right on the money.

 

[danosix]

Oddly enough, when I looked back at this thread, nope... Folks get the impression I am looking to buy, now, and am willing to go cheap. That isn't the case...

HOWEVER, IF I had to buy a new amp, say my current Crate died, or got stolen, I would be looking in the sub $500.00 range. And I would want something new with a manufacturer to stand behind it with a warranty. OR at the very least, used with a warranty for repair from a trustworthy shop. (Which rules out my local GC). I play for fun, not money. And I play badly enough I bet more people would be prone to pay me NOT to play...

I am looking to learn, so that when I outgrow my current Crate BX-100 I will have better knowledge on what to look for. I was looking to filter out the "they are cheap so they suck" and "you get what you pay for" replies as they for the most part offer no value to me.

Now I can respect the replies of "Owned one, and it rocked / it sucked because of XYZ" or "I see them in use in these situations and blah...". That sort of info helps.

I do own Behringer products, and while they aren't super fancy pants high end, they are every bit as functional and reliable as competing products, at a lower hit to my budget, and that is important. And I have yet to hear a single comment about Crate that defines why for example someone looking to buy a combo amp would buy say a used Ampeg BA-115HP (Typically sell for about $400.00 used or scratch & dent) instead of a used Crate BT-220 which has features the Ampeg lacks (typicall sell for about $200.00 used). Spec for spec they more of less match. I know resale value is hugely different between the two, then again, initial purchase price between the two were vastly different. Tone is a subjective matter.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying the Crate is per se a better amp than the Ampeg. I don't know. I know folks here are going to say the Ampeg is better, but why is it better? Is there something beyond the look of certain amps and a company logo affixed to it that makes it better, or is this all marketing hype?

What I am trying to do is cut through the hype junk and get to the meat of the matter. Which is why, back in 2002 folks couldn't say enough good about Crate bass amps, but somehow magically in 2014 folks bash them on name and some ephemeral magic about other brand names? I don't get it.

The problem with reviews, especially with low end stuff is the number of people reviewing based on misinformation.
There are indeed "it's cheap so it sucks guys" - they're wrong.
There are "this $200 (insert brand name) amp sounds BETTER than my Dad's (insert $3000 amp name)" - they're wrong.
There are new players who don't know what they are talking about and don't know how to make the amp sound it's best - they're wrong.
There are guys buying the wrong amp for their needs and say it sucks - they are wrong.
You need to go with a knowledgeable player who KNOWS WHAT YOU WANT AND NEED and listen to amps when you buy.
As far as why people don't like Crate currently - I'd say they are just inexpensive amps and people don't like them for that. When they came out they were cheap and had distortion which was new and a lot of beginners thought that was wonderful, that may be why they got rave reviews. They are actually not bad amps, they just aren't as tuneful or as heavily built as some better brands. For home use they should function perfectly.
The Ampegs get their priced from being a little higher end in components, having a better tone (subjective, but most would prefer the Ampeg tone to the Crate) and from having a well established name.
More features aren't always a good thing, especially if you are at the bottom end of the price range - get something that focusses on amplifying your bass well and it will do the job better (sound and reliablility).

 

[jastacey]

Well .... I did post my Crate BT-350 bass head, on the Houston Craigslist ..... it is a nice sounding amp, but I had to fix some crappy solder joints and a bad EQ slider, but a lot of Ampeg stuff of that era had the same issues too

 

[Big Hoss]

Well .... I did post my Crate BT-350 bass head, on the Houston Craigslist ..... it is a nice sounding amp, but I had to fix some crappy solder joints and a bad EQ slider, but a lot of Ampeg stuff of that era had the same issues too

That's yours? Nice... Too bad you posted it this time of year... I'd love to add that and a nice cab to my gear list but $$ wise this isn't the time...

As I recall from the CL post that was a late 80s / early 90s Crate, the Ampegs from back then were of lean with solder as well and are prone to bad solder joints.

 

[Big Hoss]

The problem with reviews, especially with low end stuff is the number of people reviewing based on misinformation.
There are indeed "it's cheap so it sucks guys" - they're wrong.
There are "this $200 (insert brand name) amp sounds BETTER than my Dad's (insert $3000 amp name)" - they're wrong.
There are new players who don't know what they are talking about and don't know how to make the amp sound it's best - they're wrong.
There are guys buying the wrong amp for their needs and say it sucks - they are wrong.
You need to go with a knowledgeable player who KNOWS WHAT YOU WANT AND NEED and listen to amps when you buy.
As far as why people don't like Crate currently - I'd say they are just inexpensive amps and people don't like them for that. When they came out they were cheap and had distortion which was new and a lot of beginners thought that was wonderful, that may be why they got rave reviews. They are actually not bad amps, they just aren't as tuneful or as heavily built as some better brands. For home use they should function perfectly.
The Ampegs get their priced from being a little higher end in components, having a better tone (subjective, but most would prefer the Ampeg tone to the Crate) and from having a well established name.
More features aren't always a good thing, especially if you are at the bottom end of the price range - get something that focusses on amplifying your bass well and it will do the job better (sound and reliablility).

When I went to buy my BX-100, I took along with me the best bass player I know, and no offense to anyone else, but the best bass player I have ever heard this side of Geddy Lee... A former coworker of mine, sometimes bass teacher. He ran it through the paces, I ran it through, we turned it up enough to annoy the staff at GC, we tried out a mess of other amps within my price range, and the BX-100 fit my needs best for the $$ available at the time.

Do I expect my $300.00 in 2003 Crate to be at the same level of a $3000.00 Ampeg full stack? Hardly. I do like my Crate, and feel very blessed to have an amp of this quality given the financial constraints I find myself under. However assuming my skills / talent whatever you want to call it, develop to the point I would be gigging, the amount of gigging I would do would be limited just by the rest of my life to at most 3 x a month. For that, assuming no catastrophes like lightning strike, or falling out of a truck at freeway speeds, I figure my current Crate will hold up until I am long dead.

 

[danosix]

When I went to buy my BX-100, I took along with me the best bass player I know, and no offense to anyone else, but the best bass player I have ever heard this side of Geddy Lee... A former coworker of mine, sometimes bass teacher. He ran it through the paces, I ran it through, we turned it up enough to annoy the staff at GC, we tried out a mess of other amps within my price range, and the BX-100 fit my needs best for the $$ available at the time.

Do I expect my $300.00 in 2003 Crate to be at the same level of a $3000.00 Ampeg full stack? Hardly. I do like my Crate, and feel very blessed to have an amp of this quality given the financial constraints I find myself under. However assuming my skills / talent whatever you want to call it, develop to the point I would be gigging, the amount of gigging I would do would be limited just by the rest of my life to at most 3 x a month. For that, assuming no catastrophes like lightning strike, or falling out of a truck at freeway speeds, I figure my current Crate will hold up until I am long dead.

Great! That is what I was saying way too long to say.
If it serves your purposes than you have what you need. I have no problem with low end equipment (I have some for my other instruments because I'm not a serious guitar or keyboard player), just making the point (because you asked) why so many reviews are so negative.
Also - I should have added, people who hate something are WAY more likely to review it.
Finally, I said bring someone like who you brought because you said you weren't sure - this is a good way of avoiding some of the pitfalls I mentioned because an experienced player will know what is going to get you what you want.
I wasn't accusing you of any of these sins - just answering your question - I hope you got an answer you want. I was more responding to many of the people you were responding to who were saying those things and warning you against them.

 

[danosix]

Do I expect my $300.00 in 2003 Crate to be at the same level of a $3000.00 Ampeg full stack? Hardly. I do like my Crate, and feel very blessed to have an amp of this quality given the financial constraints I find myself under.

Very wise, grasshopper.
As the great Taylor Swift once said
"haters gotta hate, hate, hate, hate hate... players gonna play, play, play, play, play..."

 

[jastacey]

As with any amp line ...there is some stuff, that is "good" and there is stuff that is "so so", it all depends on design point, price points, and market conditions, with the internet, the learning curve is some what shortened in finding honest info, but one still has to get good at "reading between the lines"

 

[modulusman]

Can you give an example of Behringer's alleged Thievery and what evidence do you have to support that claim?

Doing a simple search for Mackie Vs. Behringer leads to the wikipedia page about Behringer, follow to the Legal cases section, and there seems to be the typical corporate urintation competition stuff. Corporations using lawyers to gain competitive advantage against a strong competitor. Seems about as valid to me as Ford suing GM for GM using 4 wheels and a steering wheel on their cars. Or Fender suing Ibanez for producing electric bass guitars with 4 strings...

If you think gear companies don't copy at least portions of others designs, you are simply ignoring the obivious as can be attested to by the abundance of 100 watt 1x15 combos, 1x15 2x10, blah blah cabs... You get the idea I hope...

The fact that Behringer has had a few legal cases against them only proves on thing. They are doing enough business to get competitors attention

If anything, some of the accusations I have seen leveled against Behringer amount to nothing more than extremely lazy reverse engineering of a product. Figuring out how to duplicate a circuit without really understanding what that circuit does is rarely a good idea.

A good engineer learns how a product functions, supposedly figured out how to do the same or better things, in a better way, and design the better product to be released to the consumer.

In the case of Behringer, and it is their openly and proudly stated goal to design and build equipment of similar to or better features than the competition for lower cost to the consumer. Peavey has the same stated goal. I am sure there are others...

Do your own search they have been sued more than once.

 

[chadds]

And an Ibanez Soundgear PJ bass looks a lot like a modified Fender Precision bass... How is that thievery?

Just for reference...

Line 6 Bass POD. Looks somewhat vaguely like a cross between a kidney bean, and a PS3 game controller.

Behringer Bass V Amp. Looks somewhat like a miniaturized cutaway design electric bass guitar body.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The overall shape, controls, display, all completely different.

That's now. When they first came out they were the same color and graphics. But hey I'm not defending them.

I get that new players are afraid they may not stick with it so make a minimal investment. Then the amps sound blah and the basses play poorly. Get used good stuff and sell for what you paid for it and get good tone and not have to fight the bass to make music.

B is not the quality I want to use.

Again buy what you can afford. I was a young kid scrimping and saving. I wouldn't make do with crap gear because it had lights or knobs or looked like something else. I bought a Kustom 200 with two 2x15 cabs when Sunn was way to expensive. Did I think it sounded as good as a Sunn 2000s with two 2x15 JBL D140 cabs? C'mon! Was the Kustom reliable pro gear? Did it sound good? Yes. Great? Uh no. To me. Funny my Fender Showman head on an Ampeg B-25 cab sounded better. Just not loud enough.
That cab with a Traynor YBA-2a was great!

Now I can't afford to use unreliable and poor sounding gear. My audience wants my gear working. They pay you to show up. They pay you to choose good sounding stuff that works. This isn't about $. I knew I had arrived when I didn't have to turn around all night and look at my gear with a question, "what's it doing?"

I can't paint us all with the same brush. Some of us play in our bedrooms, some with friends. Some of us are working wedding bands as a day gig. Some of us are touring. Some of us are studio cats. Some are hired guns working Thur-Sun. Some do concerts, arenas, halls, or house type for intimate audiences. Hence our needs vary.

 

[Big Hoss]

Do your own search they have been sued more than once.

I have to ask, did you even read the reply I wrote that you quoted?

Did you not read about Behringer WINNING, or having thrown out as meritless those abuses of the court system?

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (That's the issue that occupies the majority of the first three pages of Google results when searching "Lawsuits against Behringer" excluding Behringer Harvard Holdings LLC which is NOT related to Behringer / Music Group. There are several articles returned in that same search from createdigitalmusic.com and an author credited as "Petern Kirn" that make accusations, based on thin "this kind of looks like that" argument, like the whole Line 6 / Behringer thing. I get the look and feel of the pedals issue, and Behringer settled out of court on that one, and made a running change to their pedals. Honestly I think using similiar paint colors and uninspired housing shapes and calling it a unique product is downright lame. The POD / BassAmp V thing is such a far stretch as to be an insult to the courts, and consumers intelligence.

Effectively speaking, if you want to take the moral high ground in this issue, you really ought to be blasting Mackie for abusing the court system in an attempt to suppress a valid competitor as the courts somewhat quickly ruled their accusations were without merit.

From what I have been reading, several of Behringer's accusers have a history of filing legal actions on razor thin claims in the hopes they can use the courts to push around their competitors.

If anything your argument is pushing me MORE toward Behringer out of sympathy for them as a company, and away from the likes of Peavey (which was never all that high in my book due to quality issues I personally observed in in store demo models, specifically of the TNT amps...).

 

[FFTT]

The small custom builders mentioned above, generally choose to keep their business small enough where they can stay on top of quality control
and deliver on time.
If they built enough amps to put one in every showroom, they would be inheriting big business growing pain headaches to go with it.
The prices would go up even more, because the retailer would want their cut.

Time after time, they've seen too many of their peers get in over their heads with too many backorders to fill.
They hire outside help and suddenly the quality begins to slip and that can be big trouble.

Take a look at Divided By 13's client list.
Invalid Link Removed

This is a sweet bass rig.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Big Hoss]

The small custom builders mentioned above, generally choose to keep their business small enough where they can stay on top of quality control
and deliver on time.
If they built enough amps to put one in every showroom, they would be inheriting big business growing pain headaches to go with it.
The prices would go up even more, because the retailer would want their cut.

Time after time, they've seen too many of their peers get in over their heads with too many backorders to fill.
They hire outside help and suddenly the quality begins to slip and that can be big trouble.

Take a look at Divided By 13's client list.
Invalid Link Removed

This is a sweet bass rig.

Invalid Link Removed

I was looking at their client list and got a good laugh...

Tommy Chong! WTH?! I never knew Chong had any musical inclination...

 

[FFTT]

 

[Big Hoss]

ROTFLOL! I totally forgot about those clips! I almost wet myself!

I am guessing that second amp must have been one of the early Behringer duds people are talking about going up in flames.

 

[modulusman]

I have to ask, did you even read the reply I wrote that you quoted?

Did you not read about Behringer WINNING, or having thrown out as meritless those abuses of the court system?

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (That's the issue that occupies the majority of the first three pages of Google results when searching "Lawsuits against Behringer" excluding Behringer Harvard Holdings LLC which is NOT related to Behringer / Music Group. There are several articles returned in that same search from createdigitalmusic.com and an author credited as "Petern Kirn" that make accusations, based on thin "this kind of looks like that" argument, like the whole Line 6 / Behringer thing. I get the look and feel of the pedals issue, and Behringer settled out of court on that one, and made a running change to their pedals. Honestly I think using similiar paint colors and uninspired housing shapes and calling it a unique product is downright lame. The POD / BassAmp V thing is such a far stretch as to be an insult to the courts, and consumers intelligence.

Effectively speaking, if you want to take the moral high ground in this issue, you really ought to be blasting Mackie for abusing the court system in an attempt to suppress a valid competitor as the courts somewhat quickly ruled their accusations were without merit.

From what I have been reading, several of Behringer's accusers have a history of filing legal actions on razor thin claims in the hopes they can use the courts to push around their competitors.

If anything your argument is pushing me MORE toward Behringer out of sympathy for them as a company, and away from the likes of Peavey (which was never all that high in my book due to quality issues I personally observed in in store demo models, specifically of the TNT amps...).

sigh. happy reading Invalid Link Removed

 

[RandalPinkFloyd]

I don't judge things by price, let's get that out of the way. I owned a Crate combo earlier this year for about 2 weeks before I unloaded that thing as fast as I could as I hated the tone. I've tested a couple of their cabinets because I was desperate for something earlier this summer and they were priced pretty low. But I passed I don't care how tough they are, I don't like the way they sound. Just blech.
As for Behringer, I've given a lot of their products a try. I owned a Mixer and Interface that I thought were good, however, the other components of theirs that I've used had failure issues. So I avoid the Beh due to reliability issues.

 

[Big Hoss]

sigh. happy reading Invalid Link Removed

Just a listing of forum postings hashing over the same tired, settled, and thrown out of court junk. Nothing new. However I wasn't aware that Ibanez and Gibson had been sued...

 

[Big Hoss]

I don't judge things by price, let's get that out of the way. I owned a Crate combo earlier this year for about 2 weeks before I unloaded that thing as fast as I could as I hated the tone. I've tested a couple of their cabinets because I was desperate for something earlier this summer and they were priced pretty low. But I passed I don't care how tough they are, I don't like the way they sound. Just blech.
As for Behringer, I've given a lot of their products a try. I owned a Mixer and Interface that I thought were good, however, the other components of theirs that I've used had failure issues. So I avoid the Beh due to reliability issues.

Completely valid... Thanks for the input.

FWIW, most, but not all the Behringer products I own I like. The XM8500 condenser mic sounds absolutely awful to my ear, which is why it lives alone in a box only to be brought out as a last resort...