• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Wireless Problems

A

argoed

Oct 9, 2006
18
0
Trefriw, North Wales
#1
Hi all,

I have just bought a used Samson Stage 55 wireless system for my bass (Fender Jazz) and am not very impressed with it.

When I use it the sound I get is nowhere near as rich and deep as it is through a standard guitar cable and I seem to get background noise every time I pluck a string.

Does anyone have any experience of using this system? If so, is there anything I should or should not be doing?

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks.
 
#3
Wireless will never equal wire. Period. We develop many types of wireless products and fight with this all the time. You will always trade off some quality for convenience.

With analog there are bandwidth, noise and distortion issues, and also on-channel interference problems. With the newer digital systems you have the delay problems while your signal is being processed, as well as other analog issues in the signal path. Live guitar is SO incredibly dynamic it is very hard to deal with.

Also please be aware that with the advent of HDTV taking up a lot of the old UHF channels, many of the older wireless units on 700-800 MHz are now illegal, and also prone to some very strong interference from TV stations.
 
#4
I just picked up my Line 6 Relay G50 (digital) for just that reason. Killer tone, HUGE difference! I use to be ok with my Sennheiser (analog). The freedom was worth the tone suck for a while but the tone was too drastic eventually and I retired it. I believe they're band anyway now, haven't kept up on the analog wireless FEDERAL law as Gio stated, moot point for me since I don't use it anymore. Looking forward to the true test at tomorrows gig with the G50!! I like everything about this wireless so far.
 
#5
Gio S said:
Wireless will never equal wire. Period. We develop many types of wireless products and fight with this all the time. You will always trade off some quality for convenience.

With analog there are bandwidth, noise and distortion issues, and also on-channel interference problems. With the newer digital systems you have the delay problems while your signal is being processed, as well as other analog issues in the signal path. Live guitar is SO incredibly dynamic it is very hard to deal with.

Also please be aware that with the advent of HDTV taking up a lot of the old UHF channels, many of the older wireless units on 700-800 MHz are now illegal, and also prone to some very strong interference from TV stations.
Click to expand...

You've obviously never played thru any quality wireless units, because a good portion of the above is total BS... A *good* wireless such as the X2s, Sennheiser's 172, Shure's ULX series, etc... sound every bit as good as any cable - especially the X2s... Also, none of these units have any "delay" problems like you stated...

I'd love to have you perform a double blind test of my XDR-95, because if you were a betting man, I'd probably have some of your money afterwards...


I've got over 2 years of gigging on an X2 XDR-95, and can honestly state that it is nothing like Gio S stated...


- georgestrings
 
#6
I had the chance to use the Line6 G50 this morning at an outdoor gig. Man, I loved it!
Background: The stage size-24x16 was out in a parking lot, I walked out to FOH board which was only about 40-50' away and it performed flawlessly (it better at that range). HUGE difference from my Sennheiser Ew100 G2 (analog). I could have been just as happy with the G30 but I just had to have the G50 (you know how GAS goes). Tone was KILLER-all my low end and highs, no delay, no interference, sturdy, compact and EASY to use! Hell, I can't find anything wrong with it. I did a lot of reading reviews on the Relay AND X2/XDS series' and the Relay won out hands down (for me). I can't say anything about the X2/XDS series but I believe it's all the same technology so I'm sure they deliver your tone just as well. I'm very pleased with it, well worth the money IMO. I missed being cord-free and I'm stoked over the G50!
Line 6 delivered on this one!!!
 
#9
I have a Samson Stage 55 as well (thank God I didn't buy it) that was brand new when given to me. It's decent but you do lose some eq and have to dial it back in at the amp (and FOH). It also eats batteries for lunch. You should get 4 solid hours but I have to change batteries twice during a show. I haven't used mine in a long time but with my new gig, I think I will have to until I can afford something better. I also have an older Audio Technica system (which I actually did buy over 10 years ago) with the same problem.
 
#10
georgestrings said:
You've obviously never played thru any quality wireless units, because a good portion of the above is total BS... A *good* wireless such as the X2s, Sennheiser's 172, Shure's ULX series, etc... sound every bit as good as any cable - especially the X2s... Also, none of these units have any "delay" problems like you stated...

I'd love to have you perform a double blind test of my XDR-95, because if you were a betting man, I'd probably have some of your money afterwards...


I've got over 2 years of gigging on an X2 XDR-95, and can honestly state that it is nothing like Gio S stated...


- georgestrings
Click to expand...

Technically he's right, there is a delay to all the digital units, its the nature of the beast. Its just that its such a short delay its not noticeable. And you are quite correct in that the quality of sound is essentially indistinguishable from a cord on the X2 and line 6 digital models.

Randy
 
#11
MusserMusic said:
I did a lot of reading reviews on the Relay AND X2/XDS series' and the Relay won out hands down (for me). I can't say anything about the X2/XDS series but I believe it's all the same technology so I'm sure they deliver your tone just as well.
Click to expand...
Just hypothesizing based on specs (and I'm a satisfied X2 user), but the G30/50/90 series is probably the same "technology stack" (IT term) but works on a higher freq spectrum - which is why the newer ones can run 2-"AA" batteries and last for 8 hours vice 9v, with maybe 2~3 hours. Otherwise, they're both digital, compander-free, etc., etc.
The REALLY useful thing about going wireless (other than the obvious, which is wander around the room, dance like a fool, not trip over your cord) is to go out and confirm your sound in the mix, which as we bassists know, is never anything like what we hear onstage.
 
#12
Bassorama57 said:
Just hypothesizing based on specs (and I'm a satisfied X2 user), but the G30/50/90 series is probably the same "technology stack" (IT term) but works on a higher freq spectrum - which is why the newer ones can run 2-"AA" batteries and last for 8 hours vice 9v, with maybe 2~3 hours. Otherwise, they're both digital, compander-free, etc., etc.
The REALLY useful thing about going wireless (other than the obvious, which is wander around the room, dance like a fool, not trip over your cord) is to go out and confirm your sound in the mix, which as we bassists know, is never anything like what we hear onstage.
Click to expand...

B57- Thanks. The IT term stuff's too tech for me, I didn't realize the 9v/AA had to do with freq spectrum, interesting BUT I do know the campander- free deal plays alot on the diff from analog which is very noticeable to my ears. That, and the fact that I play 4 to 5 sets and the "AA' was instrumental for me to wait for the G series. That was why I ended up with the Sennheiser yrs ago- the "AA's"
My first experiences with wireless from FOH was shocking:eek: That put a whole new level on my overall soundscape perception and woke me up big time. It's more than being free, you are correct...it's a great confirmation tool :cool:
 
#13
steveksux said:
Technically he's right, there is a delay to all the digital units, its the nature of the beast. Its just that its such a short delay its not noticeable. And you are quite correct in that the quality of sound is essentially indistinguishable from a cord on the X2 and line 6 digital models.

Randy
Click to expand...

Not really, since 24-bit Delta Sigma, 128 times over sampling is *probably* about as fast as the time it takes for a bass signal to travel down a 20' instrument cable...

His statement of:

"With the newer digital systems you have the delay problems while your signal is being processed, as well as other analog issues in the signal path."


... is absolute BS, plain and simple - as I called it in the 1st place... After all, many, many professional musicians use wireless units for live performances on a regular basis - and if they were as bad as Gio made it out to be, I highly doubt they would be used so commonly...

I'd cover any wager Gio would make in a double blind test that he couldn't consistantly tell the difference even 70% of the time - let alone the gross exaggeration he made it out to be...


- georgestrings
 
#14
georgestrings said:
You've obviously never played thru any quality wireless units, because a good portion of the above is total BS... A *good* wireless such as the X2s, Sennheiser's 172, Shure's ULX series, etc... sound every bit as good as any cable - especially the X2s... Also, none of these units have any "delay" problems like you stated...

I'd love to have you perform a double blind test of my XDR-95, because if you were a betting man, I'd probably have some of your money afterwards...


I've got over 2 years of gigging on an X2 XDR-95, and can honestly state that it is nothing like Gio S stated...



- georgestrings
Click to expand...
+1000
Ain't that the truth. His theory about "delay" is pure BS or ignorance.

I just got done evaluating the new Line 6 Relay 30 for a survey and was blown away. Hate to burst his bubble, but it actually sounded better than a cable and actually has two settings (15' and 30') to dull up the tone like a cable for those of you that need that kind of thing.

And absolute zero delay. :rollno:
steveksux said:
Technically he's right, there is a delay to all the digital units, its the nature of the beast. Its just that its such a short delay its not noticeable. And you are quite correct in that the quality of sound is essentially indistinguishable from a cord on the X2 and line 6 digital models.

Randy
Click to expand...
The only thing he's right about is the 700hz thing, which actually isn't in effect until June 12.
One of the big pats on the back (and shown in the technical specs of the Relay 30) of the Line 6 is zero delay. Can't comment on the X2 series as I've never used one.
 
#15
There is delay, it's just not audible to the human ear. I think I read 4ms quoted here somewhere on the forum from a reputable source regarding the Relay series. I have no idea how that compares to cables at varying lengths. It's simply a non-issue, from what I understand.

My G30 sounds really good for not having a wire, but does not sound better than a cable to my ears. Compared to my 21 foot Mogami it subtracts what I would estimate at about 5% of the punch, warmth, and depth of my bass through my DB750 rig while bringing forward a slight amount of high upper mids that emphasizes string noise, IMO/IME. Emphasis on slight!! But it is definitely noticable to me on an A/B test. I have to boost the bass knob about 5% to match, but it still doesn't make it equal.

I greatly prefer the added depth, warmth, and punch I get from the cable but will make due with the wireless for convenience's sake on larger stages. Just my opinion and experience. FWIW, I'm a purist and probably overly picky about my tone, so take what I've said with a grain or two of salt.
 
#16
Scott McArron said:
There is delay, it's just not audible to the human ear. I think I read 4ms quoted here somewhere on the forum from a reputable source regarding the Relay series. I have no idea how that compares to cables at varying lengths. It's simply a non-issue, from what I understand.

My G30 sounds really good for not having a wire, but does not sound better than a cable to my ears. Compared to my 21 foot Mogami it subtracts what I would estimate at about 5% of the punch, warmth, and depth of my bass through my DB750 rig while bringing forward a slight amount of high upper mids that emphasizes string noise, IMO/IME. Emphasis on slight!! But it is definitely noticable to me on an A/B test. I have to boost the bass knob about 5% to match, but it still doesn't make it equal.

I greatly prefer the added depth, warmth, and punch I get from the cable but will make due with the wireless for convenience's sake on larger stages. Just my opinion and experience. FWIW, I'm a purist and probably overly picky about my tone, so take what I've said with a grain or two of salt.
Click to expand...
FWIW, I seem to remember the manual quoting "no delay" because of some specific stat.

Also, one of the guys in another thread says his sounds "better" than his Mogami cable. I have to agree as it sounded better than a cable for me also.
 
#17
PhatBasstard said:
FWIW, I seem to remember the manual quoting "no delay" because of some specific stat.

Also, one of the guys in another thread says his sounds "better" than his Mogami cable. I have to agree as it sounded better than a cable for me also.
Click to expand...

I agree, there is no perceivable delay. Only technically speaking. I just thought that guy back there was getting a little more than he deserved and wanted to make things a little more clear.

If some like their tone better with the Relay that's great for them!! Though opinions are highly subjective and don't clue others on the forum into the tonal difference they are hearing. What do they like better about their tone with the Relay unit as compared to a Mogami cable? I'd like to get their input on their A/B tests.

Oh yeah, another descriptive word that I would use in my A/B test is 'organic.' The wired signal seems to retain more of an organic tone to it that is slightly degraded in the digital signal. I actually blindfolded myself this afternoon and had my friend (roommate) switch the two in and out randomly for a good 15 minutes or so. At least 20 times or more. I called 'em right 100% of the time, FWIW.
 
#18
Gio S said:
With the newer digital systems you have the delay problems while your signal is being processed, as well as other analog issues in the signal path. Live guitar is SO incredibly dynamic it is very hard to deal with.
Click to expand...

I totally agree that live guitar is very hard to deal with. I also agree that digital systems have delay, however, the amount of delay in systems such as the Relay units is rated at a level below that of human perception. So the delay point is moot and not the slightest problem, at least with these particular units.

Analog has delay as well as there is resistance in copper, but what that delay is I don't know. I'd guess they're somewhat similar since the electrical signal would travel the copper wire at a rate just under the speed of light depending on the resistance and irregularities of the wire, which might even things out with the processing "delay" of the digital signal. Or maybe not. :eyebrow:
 
#20
There's always a delay when you're doing a/d and d/a conversions and the various transforms to get the signal modulated, I believe those are using spread spectrum.

And its going to be orders of magnitude more than the "delay" of a signal travelling 286,000 miles per hour going down 20' of cable. And can still be only a few ms, less than detectable to the human ear. You get more "delay" from standing a few feet from your amp for the sound to get from speaker to ear.

Randy
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back