Wireless Problems

[georgestrings]

Right! That's exactly what I was saying. I just wanted to clear up the "delay issue" that was presented because some guy back in the thread got more than he deserved when he said there was delay. He was right that, yes, there is delay, however, he was wrong in that it poses a "problem" since it is inaudible to the human ear.

He got flack because he totally misrepresented things - here's what he said:


"With the newer digital systems you have the delay problems while your signal is being processed"


Now, it's already been proven by scientific measurement that any delay is inaudible to the human ear - and you'll note that he hasn't returned since that line of BS was exposed for what it really is... His statement is a gross misrepresentation *at best*, and an outright lie at worst...


- georgestrings

 

[Scott McArron]

Yeah, I mostly play in high energy hard rock and metal bands - our crowds expect us to move around ALOT... I can totally see what you described happening - especially if 2 guitars, a bass, and a singer are all cabled...

I've been gigging my XDR-95 for over 2 years now, and unless I join a blues band, I won't be going back to being cabled...


- georgestrings

I miss my metal days... That was fun! Like you, I'm in a band that needs to move around a lot, too. Several of my bands right now are large stage, casino-type bands that are being paid to put on a performance as much as play music. If I just stood in one spot all night I'd be fired! We've had plenty of band "discussions" about putting on a show and moving around on stage. It is so unbelievably easier and more fun with wireless than with a cable! I'll take that 5% tone degradation (IMO/IME only!!) that'll get lost in the mix anyway to go wireless for the convenience factor.

 

[Scott McArron]

He got flack because he totally misrepresented things - here's what he said:


"With the newer digital systems you have the delay problems while your signal is being processed"


Now, it's already been proven by scientific measurement that any delay is inaudible to the human ear - and you'll note that he hasn't returned since that line of BS was exposed for what it really is... His statement is a gross misrepresentation *at best*, and an outright lie at worst...


- georgestrings

I agree that statement above is a misrepresentation of the facts. The signal DOES have to be processed, which does take time, but that amount of time is so small that it is moot. I certainly didn't agree with that statement, but some of those who argued it were arguing without proper evidence to support their side as well. I believe I read someone saying there is "no delay" or something similar to that. That is false information as well. There is delay, but we won't be able to hear it. It's really a non-issue, but both sides should be measured with the same measuring stick, IMO. Just trying to be as fair as possible.

 

[anonymous101511]

I didn't note anyone mentioning this issue; is your bass passive? Some wireless units, (even my Sennheiser 172) HATE passive instruments. They sound thin and brittle. There is a setting for simulating the loading a cable creates for a passive set- up but it works only marginally at best.
I can't use any of my passive basses wirelessly, I hate the sound, too.

 

[Scott McArron]

I haven't spent a lot of time at louder volumes with the 'cable tone' settings on my G30, but the limited use I have with it hasn't been great. I'm not getting back any of the tone loss. Instead, it seems to make it a little boxier sounding on top of the loss of depth and punch. I'll wait till I get some gig time with it to see if it's a feature that will be useful, so I'll hold out on any judgement until then. In any case, I still think it's one of the best wireless units I've tried yet!

 

[countrybassist]

I look at it this way. My bro, Fred Kowola who is the tech for Dave Elfsen and the other guitarist, I can't think of his name, but it's not Mustane, switched Megadeth over to the G90, so I would assume that they work quite well.

 

[georgestrings]

I look at it this way. My bro, Fred Kowola who is the tech for Dave Elfsen and the other guitarist, I can't think of his name, but it's not Mustane, switched Megadeth over to the G90, so I would assume that they work quite well.

Yeah, and a fair amount of big names used the X-wire before it became the X2, which is basically the same thing... IIRC, Steve Vai was one of them - so much for guitar being such a "challenge" for wireless...



- georgestrings

 

[Sten]

Hi guys! I hope I am not hijacking the thread here, seems the OP got his reply. If I am, please tell me so

My friend is going to be in the US for 2 weeks starting end of June. I thought that would be a good opportunity to get a Line 6 wireless for cheaper than they sell here in Europe. I don't know which area he will be located at yet, but I do believe there are several chains that sell gear in most of the states there. If I know more, I'll post the location.

For example what I came up with is this site:
Invalid Link Removed

They have the newer Relay range available, the price seems to be the same that X2 used to have. I would like to place it on my pedalboard and I am looking at G50, since it is my assumption the external antennas will cover more spots on the stage at tougher places and somewhat eliminate the problem that the pedalboard is in front of you, the transmitter is behind you and the wireless signal may be cut by my own body. Is that true or will the G30 work just as well?

From the specs I see the transmitter for G50 has TA4f connector, which is basically XLR right? Why is that so? Since the cable is included, I do not think that will pose any problem tough. It also has more channels than G50 and a LED display which can be useful.

Also, do you know if supplying from an adapter, do they work with center negative polarity?

If anyone knows a place with better prices, or if there is a place an X2 could be snagged dirt cheap I would really appreciate!

 

[Gearhead17]

The G50 system - I have the receiver unit on my pedal board and have had no trouble at all with it. Does not matter where I stand. The adapter that comes with it is working fine - I don't know if the center pin is negative though.

From what I heard at Guitar Center - Line 6 is not allowing the X2 systems to be reduced in price even though they are discontinued. Then again, this could a be a bunch of lies.

The G50 system is better tone wise than my Mogami 20' cable - more highs for sure. I can't hear any of the differences whether I am using headphones and practicing wireless or through the various bass rigs I have live. The only difference is the clarity of the signal. With my Spector basses, the extra clarity is quite helpful.

But let's get to the point here - the G50 is fantastic when compared to an instrument cable. The differences between the two are going to be lost in the shuffle in a live mix. So if you want to go wireless - grab the Relay system and don't look back. Not worrying about your cable on stage is an amazing feeling and I suggest everyone tries it once!

 

[Sten]

Sounds good, I didn't expect it to come with an included adapter. I checked the type from Line6 web site and it is indeed center negative. I guess I can sell the adapter then

Have you tried the cable simulator? What effect does it have to your sound? Does it sound more similar to your cable that way?

Does the bodypack have a knob to just turn it off?

 

[Gearhead17]

Bodypack has a knob to turn it off. Works great and the signal level/strength does not change at all when you turn it off then back on. Great way to save battery power.

 

[rtslinger]

I have been rocking this work horse since in first came available back when! Still use it for every gig.It has a volume control at the back never ever had any loss of bass power using it
http://www.angelfire.com/music/TheBassAcesKISSpage/images/101_VHF.jpg this is not mine but is the same one I have RTS

 

[Sten]

Your link does not work.

 

[Gearhead17]

With the cable simulator, you can hear a little bit of the high end get rolled off like a cable would do. Maybe some low end loss. I found the feature useless.

When I talked to Line 6 about my units, he told me the cable simulator worked better for guitarists than bass players. The 6khz roll off on certain length cables helped get rid of pesky high frequencies. The extra high end on guitar signals above 5khz contributes to a bunch of extra noise. Guitarists using the Line 6 unit were annoyed with such a clear sound! So adding the cable simulator into the equation made the unit sound more like a cable for guitar players.

 

[Sten]

Thanks, makes a lot of sense!

 

[Bassamatic]

Guys - I didn't mean to insult anyone - just trying to be realistic. I have been working in pro audio and wireless for 40 years both using it and developing new products. Wireless is not a cure-all.

I am happy to hear that you guys that own expensive wireless systems feel that you got your money's worth, but

1. Wireless will NEVER sound like a wire. Period. It is impossible. IT is like saying that recorded audio sounds like a live show. Sure, the new units are better - they have to be to sell at all - but they will never replace a wire. Yes, you can EQ the sound to compensate for the loss in the electronics, but that also adds noise and distortions. This is not so critical for bass players due to the low frequencies involved, but it is there.

2. Delay is delay. Perhaps the maker states that it is not perceiveable, but is this true? You can easily hear the phase difference when the distance between 2 cabs is varied. That is just a short delay you hear. ALL digital processes have delays, however short. AND it is added to whatever other acoustic delays there are. Delay in a wire? C'Mon - it is the speed of light - virtually instantaneous even over miles of wire. I have never seen a digital wireless system used for TV or movie production.

3. Pros and touring groups only use wireless when it is necessary for stage changes and movement. It is considered a "necessary evil" and a real PITA to coordinate for a touring show as the available frequencies can change with every venue.

4. Interference is always an issue besides the fact that 700 MHz is no longer usable. For example the 2.4 GHz band is also where microwave ovens are. Someday when a guy pops a burritto in their leaky old 1000 Watt oven at the bar, everything nearby on 2.4 is going to come to a noisy stop until the timer dings.

In addition to the above - you now have another battery to watch. For example at Universal Studios the batteries were replaced EVERY show and still may be. There are also 2 more sets of electronics to go wrong.

Wireless can be very handy at times, but it isn't going to replace wire - ever. THAT was my point.

 

[Sten]

Wireless is not a cure-all.

I agree with your point in the end, but...

1. Wireless will NEVER sound like a wire. /---/This is not so critical for bass players due to the low frequencies involved, but it is there.

I doubt most of us can tell a difference in a band mix with the new digital wireless systems.

2. Delay is delay.

Compared to the delay coming from the speed of sound when you walk away from the cabinet, I think the one of the wireless system can be less. Therefore I do not consider it much of an issue in live situation.

3. Pros and touring groups only use wireless when it is necessary for stage changes and movement. It is considered a "necessary evil" and a real PITA to coordinate for a touring show as the available frequencies can change with every venue.

With 2,4GHz range that really is not much of an issue, and with G50 you have 12 channels available in a flick of a switch.

4. For example the 2.4 GHz band is also where microwave ovens are. Someday when a guy pops a burritto in their leaky old 1000 Watt oven at the bar, everything nearby on 2.4 is going to come to a noisy stop until the timer dings.

I doubt you need a wireless system in a pub venue where you are playing next to a bar with microwave, but that probably is the point I have the worst arguements to

In addition to the above - you now have another battery to watch.

Agreed. You also have one less cable to watch. If it was a win-win, cable manufacturers would go out of business.

Wireless can be very handy at times, but it isn't going to replace wire - ever. THAT was my point.

Like I said, I agree. I still think that for bass guitar in a metal band where stage energy is half of the impression (my case), I will earn back the price of a Line 6 wireless (G50 is 399 USD) in a very short time.

 

[JackANSI]

Wireless can be very handy at times, but it isn't going to replace wire - ever. THAT was my point.

It already has in many situations and for many players.. so...

 

[slyjoe]

...

2. Delay is delay. Perhaps the maker states that it is not perceiveable, but is this true? You can easily hear the phase difference when the distance between 2 cabs is varied. That is just a short delay you hear. ALL digital processes have delays, however short. AND it is added to whatever other acoustic delays there are. Delay in a wire? C'Mon - it is the speed of light - virtually instantaneous even over miles of wire. I have never seen a digital wireless system used for TV or movie production.
...

You aren't hearing the delay - you are hearing a phase difference CAUSED by delay. Different problem.

And the speed of light is only valid for, well, light or other EM radiation in a vacuum. Coaxial cable - roughly 66%. Speed of propagation has nothing to do with the delays being talked about here.

The MAJOR difference is the capacitance loading of cable. None of that with wireless, at least from the transmitter to the receiver.

Wireless can be very handy at times, but it isn't going to replace wire - ever. THAT was my point.

And with that, I tend to agree.

 

[georgestrings]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio S
Wireless can be very handy at times, but it isn't going to replace wire - ever. THAT was my point.

It already has in many situations and for many players.. so...

No doubt - big name live acts use wireless units almost exclusively - a point that Gio is still dodging, while continuing to spew BS... For someone who supposidly has been "working in pro audio and wireless for 40 years both using it and developing new products", he sure is ignoring the realities of current stage performance...

Harping on "delay issues" is becoming rediculous - it's already been proven to so miniscule that it is inaudible, and verified by scientific measurement - another fact that he's ignoring...

I can't speak for anyone else, but I know a load of crap when I see one - when I see someone resorting to such tactics, I have a difficult time believing anything they say...


- georgestrings