With Tube Prices So High, Worth Looking into NOS?

[JimmyM]

Since the net in conus is being attacked as per Bitdefender, the video you posted did not appear right away when your post first appeared in my browser. So it just appeared now. Have that same thing with photos and lots of beach ball and slow downloads or pages not loading. Yeah they're messing with the net like it or not.

Yes, I remember now I saw that tube testing video years ago. Doesn't mention where/when the tubes are/were made. Still you're not making tubes, you're testing them. It also doesn't mean the tube sounds better for other applications except for your amps, or so you think.

This is supposedly off your Mesa news circa 2013:

There are only 3 countries manufacturing tubes left in the world: China, Russia, and the Czech Republic. ((China - Shuguang (Penta, Ruby, Groove Tubes, etc), Russia - New Sensor (Sovtek, Svetlana, EH, Tung Sol, etc), and Czech - JJ.

You're not using USA tubes you're using whatever they're making on the planet now.

And the way you have your amps bias fixed, you void warranty if other tubes are used.
Nothing wrong with designing your amps around tubes you find and test to use.

Basically you're making the best of a not optimal situation making do with what's on hand that is cost effective.

I don't think you'd do that with NOS.

Imagine if the tube industry in the 20th never went away and the ones made then are available today hot off the presses and even updated on the technology?

Tube technology has not improved IMO and reason some seek NOS. I've experienced it and many other repair techs, basic musicians have as well.

You saying tubes are better made now than then is misinformation.

Or as mentioned earlier the way your amps are designed perhaps a different type of tube would need to be invented?

I never operated or used a Mesa but they do sound ok for what they do and I have no idea if others have come across other brands (NOS) that work in your amps.

Tubes made today in Russia or China do not have the exact same recipe that American tubes had. They are copying old technology but not making them as good as they were once made.. It's brand recognition mainly. And when a brand sells off the new owner makes them the way they want which is not classic but stylized and with economics at the helm.

Plugging in NOS tubes in most tube gear gives a different sound. How does that happen from something decades old?

Plugging in ANY tube can give you a different sound, depending on what the gear is, how the tube is made, and where you plug it in. That’s not so remarkable.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

Yes AC is dirty which is why (besides a grid failure) major concerts use crystal sync gen sets to provide power to the entire stage.

We won't run on city power!

If you're plugging your music gear into the wall and without knowing if the power company fiddled with their settings (voltage and Hz fluctuations) then you're exposing your gear to AC that is not clean and stable.

I'm not a electronics expert but as Tyler from TC tubes explained some tubes in certain amp circuits he could tell how the performance in a certain amp might run the tubes too hard. So he would suggest a tube based on the amp.

Bias, if it can be adjusted, is important.

But overall, the experience I had with the 2004-2005 Svetlana 6550 pair in a 40 watt amp, even running through clean regulated AC they still failed. The Sovteks (and these are old stock/new) are still working and that's after being driven hard during a concert back in 2018.

Back in the "day" we used to run gear, were not knowledgeable enough to check bias, or use a variac, but tubes worked for a long time we never thought about tube failures.

Ac was "cleaner" back in the day when we'd play gigs off of wall/city grid power.

Of course back up tubes are a necessity.

And at the stage, back up amps are rider requests.

My question was not about clean vs dirty power. It was about the effects of increased line voltage.

 

[Zak TMD]

I say why bother with these guys.... Have you seen their other tube prices? Doesn't seem like this is going to save anything.

Well, they DID mention that the prices would be less than their audiophile tubes, though how much less remains to be seen. I was more curious about quality vs price.

JJ Tubes are fine, but sonically not my #1 preference, though I agree that in a pinch, it's good to know their prices have not gone up much.

 

[agedhorse]

Mesa used US tubes in the earlier days, the problems were in fact similar. Until recently we did still have some of our NOS Sylvania tubes available in stock, but no longer.

My dad designed tube equipment for the aerospace industry back in the 1950s, he confirmed the challenges with tube reliability going back that far. I’ve designed with tubes since the early 1980’s, same thing. It’s inherent in the technology, always has been.

Some companies test for marketing purposes, some like us test specifically for reliability, noise, microphonics, gain and section matching. Our longer warranty makes it important that we avoid failure wherever possible.

We go through hundreds of thousands of tubes a year, this gives me a pretty good perspective on real world reliability of current tubes versus the “good ‘ol days” when we used USA tubes.

Grid power is much more reliable then genny power, and for indoor shows (or outdoor at night), the health & safety laws (in the US and most of the EU) prohibit operating shows without either grid power or 2 sources of genny power and an approved transfer switch between primary and emergency back-up power for egress lighting and safety systems. Therefore, if the grid fails, the show is over or paused until it returns anyway.

 

[agedhorse]

Regarding “crystal sync” generators, as I suspected it’s a marketing term only targeted at the cinema production industry used to describe electronically controlled engine speed control and thus frequency control. Even with electronic speed control, which is pretty standard on larger gen-sets, the frequency tolerance is about 10x worse than the grid!

Sorry man, I’ve been in this industry for a long time, I can spot BS a mile away.

 

[baxter_x]

Hahaha....
I have to say the term itself triggered a smile in my mind. But I'm no tech nor engie at all.

 

[JimmyM]

Oh great. All of a sudden everyone else's years of experience in major concert work is now all for naught because double-jagged boost neighed and whinnied to drop weight and bring his 'dad' into the mix and point out things that he decided to debate about.

Now it's going from "absurd" to "marketing term" (he suspected) not taking into consideration that making moving pictures has issues that are power related.

The tail is only inches away to nip things in the bud. Now if we can only run faster we might grab it...

Let's sit back and watch...

Funny how what he thinks he knows is the only thing worth knowing...or discussing for that matter...

Better not share about your experiences here because the tube police are watching and want to take issue with something you said in passing and blow it out of proportion.

But it has electrolytes...


Ok so now we're talking about you and just your perspective? Meanwhile others' failed tubes that didn't last as long as all the others they've used before have to sit back and punt? Because YOUR experiences trump theirs so they're not worth listening to?

I don't think you're listening well enough old horse...



Ok so what about the rest of the planet?

Already mentioned didn't I we used back up (2) gen sets?

Speed read much?

Grid power much more reliable?

Tell that to the people in Texas 2.18.21

Rolling blackouts...Hehehe. Get out much?

Invalid Link Removed

You're going to pontificate AND decree based on your little corner of the world?
Nothing else is kosher enough because you're the only one with the "degree" and the thousands of tubes under your nose?

Get the wrong idea too quick a lot?



Yeah and it's all about you isn't it...

Might want to consider that "health and safety" is just another way to control everything and make things impossible.

Ever wonder about that as you get grabbed at the airport before getting on the plane?



Ok so you're going point out the obvious and then semantically take issue on whether it's remarkable or not?

Tube rolling is not an effort to find that magic combination of tubes and gear?

And is not so remarkable?

Poor tube roller, everything they're doing is not so remarkable...

The OP hit it on the head.

If you're going to spend stagflation prices on copies of NOS tubes, wouldn't it be better to just get the NOS?

An NOS tube is more likely to retain its value AND LAST LONGER (money and aesthetics) than the clone.

Now before the tube police wake up...

I’m sure it will…if you don’t use it.

Anyway, nice pity party you threw yourself. Hate to break it to you, but people ARE allowed to comment on your posts and even cast doubt on them if they think you’re off base. Would you like some get over it juice?

 

[Slapndbayass]

I’m sure it will…if you don’t use it.

Anyway, nice pity party you threw yourself. Hate to break it to you, but people ARE allowed to comment on your posts and even cast doubt on them if they think you’re off base. Would you like some get over it juice?

Hehe I pity the ones who have no clues about their situations.

You can comment of course but sarcasm is not intelligent if it does not bring a solution other that castigation for castigation's sake.

So what party are we discussing now?

Man in the arena... ever hear that phrase?

Used NOS are worth more than USED CLONES!

 

[JimmyM]

Hehe I pity the ones who have no clues about their situations.

You can comment of course but sarcasm is not intelligent if it does not bring a solution other that castigation for castigation's sake.

So what party are we discussing now?

Man in the arena... ever hear that phrase?

Used NOS are worth more than USED CLONES!

I did understand that last sentence. That’s about all I understood. And nobody is debating that NOS tubes cost more. Damn sure doesn’t mean you will like them better.

As for the rest of your post, let me dig out my Word Salad to English dictionary and get back with you.

 

[agedhorse]

Health and safety laws prevent a lot of major injuries and deaths. This is fact, not opinion.

Laws regarding fire escapes, fire sprinklers, seat belts, air bags, seismic building requirements, electrical safety, heavy metal testing in foods and meds, and thousands of other health and safety laws are a direct result of injuries and deaths across a variety of industries.

When your comments are inaccurate or incorrect, you are going to get called out. Mesa is not the only tube amp company I have worked for, the experiences are the same at all of those companies.

Perhaps this would be a good time to agree to disagree? I think enough has been said for folks reading this to determine what is correct and what is not.

 

[Slapndbayass]

I did understand that last sentence. That’s about all I understood. And nobody is debating that NOS tubes cost more. Damn sure doesn’t mean you will like them better.

As for the rest of your post, let me dig out my Word Salad to English dictionary and get back with you.

Hehehe...

"Snappy come backs" never cease to amaze...

But did you at least get the OP's point?

RIP Charlotte Iserbyt...

 

[Slapndbayass]

Health and safety laws prevent a lot of major injuries and deaths. This is fact, not opinion.

Laws regarding fire escapes, fire sprinklers, seat belts, air bags, seismic building requirements, electrical safety, heavy metal testing in foods and meds, and thousands of other health and safety laws are a direct result of injuries and deaths across a variety of industries.

When your comments are inaccurate or incorrect, you are going to get called out. Mesa is not the only tube amp company I have worked for, the experiences are the same at all of those companies.

Perhaps this would be a good time to agree to disagree? I think enough has been said for folks reading this to determine what is correct and what is not.

Inaccurate? Or taken out of context?

I don't think you can tell the difference.

And we (I) at least write for posterity not for the choir.

Someone else will read this and understand.

 

[agedhorse]

Someone else will read this and understand.

On this I think we agree.

 

[baxter_x]

It’s inherent in the technology, always has been.

Back on the subject, if I understand correctly, tubes reandom reliability will always be there? Can we expect any improvement?
Should I assume transistors are close to 99,99% reliable then?

 

[Pocket Dave]

Back on the subject, if I understand correctly, tubes reandom reliability will always be there? Can we expect any improvement?
Should I assume transistors are close to 99,99% reliable then?

More to the point, with modern solid state amps, there's less replacement of components (tubes), less temperature coefficient variation due to proximity of hot tubes and higher currents, and less ongoing maintenance/tuning due to the need to readjust bias when replacing power tubes on fixed bias circuits, or sometimes just due to bias drift over time.

Mainly, in the bass amp world, modern solid state amps do a remarkably good job of coloring and projecting electric bass tones compared with tube bass amps. OTH, tube guitar amps provide overdrive and touch sensitivity that solid state still can't match IME.

 

[agedhorse]

Back on the subject, if I understand correctly, tubes reandom reliability will always be there? Can we expect any improvement?
Should I assume transistors are close to 99,99% reliable then?

Every component will have random failures, transistors have random failures (also called infant failures) in the first 250 hours of maybe 1 part per million, tubes will have a random failure in the first 250 hours of maybe 1 part per 100. Quite a difference.

Now when you look at 20,000 hours, you might find 5 parts per million failure in a transistor and 90% failure in tubes.

So from the above data, it should be obvious that the reliability data needs to be discussed along with the time period being investigated.

 

[baxter_x]

So from the above data, it should be obvious that the reliability data needs to be discussed along with the time period being investigated.

Well... To me there is not much to discuss. Transistors are by far way more relaiable!
Or I'm missing something....

 

[agedhorse]

Well... To me there is not much to discuss. Transistors are by far way more relaiable!
Or I'm missing something....

Nope, they really are that much more reliable.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

"Now before the tube police wake up..."

Or the Logical Fallacy patrol arrives.

 

[JimmyM]

Well... To me there is not much to discuss. Transistors are by far way more relaiable!
Or I'm missing something....

That’s not exactly a secret. And tube amp fans don’t really care all that much.