With Tube Prices So High, Worth Looking into NOS?

[H K]

Yes any 6550 if your amp uses them will fit the sockets. The designation on the end of the "6550" (WD WE) does not mean the socket is different.

Tube tone quest is, more so these days, a costly endeavor. Tube rolling is a drawn out process of getting as many tubes as you can and trying them all out. And it all depends on one's specific gear and style. Hard to say one size fits all.

What IS the designation WD/WE etc?

 

[Zak TMD]

tangentially related, anyone heard any news on Western Electric starting amp tube production?

Some time back, they did a feeler here: We make electron tubes — Western Electric - Maker of electron tubes and high fidelity

But I haven't heard a thing since.

 

[agedhorse]

New tubes made today are not made the way they were in the heyday of tubes. The brand names got bought up including a lot of the gear from the old factories.

The vacuuming process to get the air out of the tube is where they skimp today vs back in the 20th. It's what makes the tube last longer and sound better.

Back in the day I don't remember having tube problems.

I think it's worse today. And the tubes are not made as well today as they were back then so more .

In my experience none of this is true. There were plenty of tube failures back in the “good ‘ol days”.

In some ways, some tubes are even better today, and up until recently they were less expensive than the “good ‘ol days” when inflation is factored in. Quite a bit less expensive.

 

[baxter_x]

In my experience none of this is true. There were plenty of tube failures back in the “good ‘ol days”.

In some ways, some tubes are even better today, and up until recently they were less expensive than the “good ‘ol days” when inflation is factored in. Quite a bit less expensive.

SO is this wrong when someone claims tubes quality is getting lower these days?
IIRC, you mentioned Mesa stopped making all tubes amp because of higher failure rates with power tubes.
I hope I remember correctly though.

 

[agedhorse]

SO is this wrong when someone claims tubes quality is getting lower these days?
IIRC, you mentioned Mesa stopped making all tubes amp because of higher failure rates with power tubes.
I hope I remember correctly though.

We still make all tube guitar amps, current models are all tube.

On the bass side, this was a specific tube (KT-88), and a specific application (Strategy/Prodigy) that pushed the tubes to their limits. We would receive a lot of perfectly acceptable tubes, then a lot of unacceptable tubes, seemingly randomly.

That said, we ran into similar issues back in the “good ‘ol days” when we used US manufactured parts, especially on designs that pushed the envelope of performance, something Randall sometimes did in the quest for “ultimate tone”.

 

[Zak TMD]

We still make all tube guitar amps, current models are all tube.

On the bass side, this was a specific tube (KT-88), and a specific application (Strategy/Prodigy) that pushed the tubes to their limits. We would receive a lot of perfectly acceptable tubes, then a lot of unacceptable tubes, seemingly randomly.

That said, we ran into similar issues back in the “good ‘ol days” when we used US manufactured parts, especially on designs that pushed the envelope of performance, something Randall sometimes did in the quest for “ultimate tone”.

This is super interesting.

I for one was kinda sad to hear that Mesa stopped producing tube bass heads and the powerhouse series of cabs (I was this close to pulling the trigger on a 412 right before getting a custom one built instead.)

I wonder if you could clarify (in dummy terms, cuz I'm not too bright about certain things) what you mean by "pushing the limits" in terms of production - I think I get it as the prodigy was really powerful for the size - but do you mean like maximizing the tube output of any given tube?

 

[agedhorse]

This is super interesting.

I for one was kinda sad to hear that Mesa stopped producing tube bass heads and the powerhouse series of cabs (I was this close to pulling the trigger on a 412 right before getting a custom one built instead.)

I wonder if you could clarify (in dummy terms, cuz I'm not too bright about certain things) what you mean by "pushing the limits" in terms of production - I think I get it as the prodigy was really powerful for the size - but do you mean like maximizing the tube output of any given tube?

You might be sad, but there are plenty of used Prodigys and PH-410s on the used market selling for less than it costs now to build. If we were to build them today, we wouldn't sell more than a couple, the market pretty much passed them by due to the size, weight and cost.

The extreme performance goals of the Strategy/Prodigy stressed the power tubes to the limit, and as long as the tubes were good there were no issues (and there weren't any issues in the first few years either), but then we started seeing a lot more infant failures (in the first 250 hours) which signified a change in something that was narrowed down to specific tube lots. We switched tube manufacturers and things improved for a while but then started to see different infant failures. Since we don't have any real control over the tube building process (no amp manufacturer really does), it was determined that it would be prudent to discontinue the amps as the designer felt that changing the amp conflicted with his design goals.

 

[Pocket Dave]

In my experience none of this is true. There were plenty of tube failures back in the “good ‘ol days”.

Not only were there failures, there were longevity issues too. When gigging on guitar regularly in the late 70's with my '64 Super Reverb, admittedly cranked as was often the case back in the day, 6 months was about the point where I noticed an improvement in tone when replacing power tubes, longer with preamp tubes.

When I hear, "tubes lasted forever back in the day" arguments, I can't help but wonder in what wacked-out, not-even-close-to parallel universe.

 

[beans-on-toast]

It’s interesting to note that radioactive isotopes were used in some military tubes. Meters in radios and some test equipment glowed in the dark. Some switch bat tips were painted and glowed as well. They emitted radon gas. Radium was used as a luminous marker in pre 60’s watches. I had some of those.

Radioactive Electronic Tubes - PhysicsOpenLab

The question to ask is, are the coating formulations and gasses used in the production of NOS tubes the same as those used in current production. There are conflicting reports regarding this. The formulations and processes are generally trade secrets. The adhesive used to fix the tube base to the glass envelope has evolved. Improvements have been made.

 

[Zak TMD]

You might be sad, but there are plenty of used Prodigys and PH-410s on the used market selling for less than it costs now to build. If we were to build them today, we wouldn't sell more than a couple, the market pretty much passed them by due to the size, weight and cost.

I mean, yea, that makes a lot of sense, even just looking around here - reality is most people who play don't really want the old school big, heavy thing. I regularly see more posts about going ampless than playing tube amps these days. I realize the reality, but still get bummed when the old school manufacturers of big, cool tube heads stop making them.

I might actually pick up a prodigy one of these days once I start focusing on building out my stack of big, ol' heads sitting in my basement that I may never use. As it stands now, I'm good with the meatsmoke and a terrorbass as backup.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Not only were there failures, there were longevity issues too. When gigging on guitar regularly in the late 70's with my '64 Super Reverb, admittedly cranked as was often the case back in the day, 6 months was about the point where I noticed an improvement in tone when replacing power tubes, longer with preamp tubes.

When I hear, "tubes lasted forever back in the day" arguments, I can't help but wonder in what wacked-out, not-even-close-to parallel universe.

They were pretty inexpensive in the 60’s. A disposable item that was available even in pharmacies. But I didn’t change tubes much back then, some not at all.

It depends on the amp’s design. I had one amp that would eat tubes in short order. Fender would run some amps above the recommended voltage maximums and with impedance mismatches both of which is harder on the tubes. On the other hand, I have a Hammond organ that spent most of it’s life on a club stage. It still has some original tubes in it.

 

[baxter_x]

We still make all tube guitar amps, current models are all tube.

On the bass side, this was a specific tube (KT-88), and a specific application (Strategy/Prodigy) that pushed the tubes to their limits. We would receive a lot of perfectly acceptable tubes, then a lot of unacceptable tubes, seemingly randomly.

That said, we ran into similar issues back in the “good ‘ol days” when we used US manufactured parts, especially on designs that pushed the envelope of performance, something Randall sometimes did in the quest for “ultimate tone”.

Very interesting.
So according to you, the issue was specific to the latest Mesa all tube amps and the KT88.
My Sadowsky sa200 runs on el34. If needed, can I expect to buy some new el34? Or there might be some issues with them like with the KT88?

 

[agedhorse]

It’s interesting to note that radioactive isotopes were used in some military tubes. Meters in radios and some test equipment glowed in the dark. Some switch bat tips were painted and glowed as well. They emitted radon gas. Radium was used as a luminous marker in pre 60’s watches. I had some of those.

Radioactive Electronic Tubes - PhysicsOpenLab

The question to ask is, are the coating formulations and gasses used in the production of NOS tubes the same as those used in current production. There are conflicting reports regarding this. The formulations and processes are generally trade secrets. The adhesive used to fix the tube base to the glass envelope has evolved. Improvements have been made.

Yes, there have been changes, often out of necessity because of some (seriously) hazardous chemicals and materials used. Many of the changes have been for the better, tube base adhesives, pin forming and plating (JJ for example), and some of the new tooling and CNC punching/forming is much more precise (if a customer is willing to pay for it).

Very interesting.
So according to you, the issue was specific to the latest Mesa all tube amps and the KT88.
My Sadowsky sa200 runs on el34. If needed, can I expect to buy some new el34? Or there might be some issues with them like with the KT88?

IME, it's kind of a moving target. Fortunately there are more options with EL-34's, and perhaps the SA-200 operates them more conservatively too.

 

[Old Fart]

Reasonable prices for Winged C 6550’s

tctubes.com vintage vacuum tubes

These are legendary 6550 tubes and I still have a set in my SVT, but I am skeptical of the one offered for sale now. I had heard they are likely to be 'factory seconds.' But yeah, the St. Petersburg Svetlana Winged-C 6550s are considered to be some of the best 6550s ever made. I wish they would fire up the equipment and make more.

 

[baxter_x]

IME, it's kind of a moving target. Fortunately there are more options with EL-34's, and perhaps the SA-200 operates them more conservatively too.

Thank you for these very valuable informations once again.

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

They were pretty inexpensive in the 60’s. A disposable item that was available even in pharmacies. But I didn’t change tubes much back then, some not at all.

Ah... The old drugstore tube testers. The meter had Red for bad, Green for good, and sometimes a small area of Yellow or White for marginal.
They were made for simple use by non-technical people. I often wondered how accurate the metering really was, or if they were fudged just to sell tubes.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Ah... The old drugstore tube testers. The meter had Red for bad, Green for good, and sometimes a small area of Yellow or White for marginal.
They were made for simple use by non-technical people. I often wondered how accurate the metering really was, or if they were fudged just to sell tubes.

They were usually emissions testers which isn’t the best way to evaluate a tube. A better approach measures transconductance, shorts, gas on some tube types, even microphonics and are somewhat more expensive.

I would think that an emissions tester would indeed help sell more tubes.

 

[CryingBass]

We still make all tube guitar amps, current models are all tube.

On the bass side, this was a specific tube (KT-88), and a specific application (Strategy/Prodigy) that pushed the tubes to their limits. We would receive a lot of perfectly acceptable tubes, then a lot of unacceptable tubes, seemingly randomly.

That said, we ran into similar issues back in the “good ‘ol days” when we used US manufactured parts, especially on designs that pushed the envelope of performance, something Randall sometimes did in the quest for “ultimate tone”.

You opinion, in general, of Eurotube/JJ KT-88's? ( 8:88 guy here )

 

[agedhorse]

You opinion, in general, of Eurotube/JJ KT-88's? ( 8:88 guy here )

Don’t know, and what may have been true last year may not be true today.

 

[pravus]

If needed, can I expect to buy some new el34?

When you decide to get some new tubes it might be worth contacting some guitar amp manufacturers (like Friedman) to get a recommendation for a particular brand. Many of them use el34s in their 50w/100w heads.

I seem to recall there being a short stint of JJ el34s having quality issues, but that seems to be resolved now. Also note that multiple brands may be manufactured in the same factory so you'll want to do a little research before you commit to a purchase.