Woman Bassists?

[da_witch]

Originally posted by †ê§† ƒør €chø


hi wendy!
i was actually thinking of paz when i wrote my post. perfect example of what i was talking about. while she may be "interesting" she's certainly not "challenging". i think it's safe to say she'll never approximate the ability of a geddy lee or victor wooten. i could play anything paz can play within the 1st few weeks of my learning bass. hell, even steve harris of iron maiden has WAY more ability then she does. he was my 1st bass hero when i was like 17. paz is only recognized because she's a female i think. no more talented a bassist then the guy in smashmouth and no one knows HIS name. i bet if he were a she then we would.
as for kim clarke, never heard of her and can't find any mp3s to listen to. i seriously doubt she can play like jaco though or else we'd already be hailing her as the queen of all bassists.
do get back to me when you post your mp3s, i'm always "interested" in finding bassists who "challenge" me as a player...
namasté

First of all: Paz has more technical chops than Harris can ever dream off, but that is something different.

Second of all: I have a problem with people who think good female players are not there because they have never heard of them...a bit narrowminded. No offense though, but people tend to forget that since the bass and guitar was introduced, we were still living a world where people expect the female to stay at home and watch the kids. Musical instruments like bass and guitar where not allowed for females, they could play piano of violin or whatever.

And Kim Clarke is a fully recognised jazz player and comparing her to jaco is just stupid.
Jaco was inovative back than, but he is not that special from a technical point of view. Every classical trained bassplayer can play his stuff..

And when I say I will post an mp'3 as soon as I am done with the recordings with my band doesn't mean I am "challenging" you as a player...give me a break! Music ain't a battle.
If I post something it is just because I am proud of it and to let you here females can do more than just banging on there E string.

And than again: I am also sick and tired of this whole gender thing. You are good or you are not.
It all depends on what kind of music you like and wich musicans have inspired you.
For me that will be Myung, Bynoe, Levin etc. so obviously technical abbility of playing is very important to me.


Another lovely lady for you here...
Invalid Link Removed

With love,

Wendy

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by †ê§† ƒør €chø
i find it curious enough that there aren't any female bassists that are as technically proficient as the male bassists we all know and love. i believe that it's possible for a female to play bass as good as geddy lee, stuart hamm, victor wooten, michael manring, jeff berlin, jaco, james jamerson, etc. but i don't believe it's happened yet. it seems like all the female bassists that we know of are only famous 'cause they're female. like it's a novelty or something.
if they weren't female they would be in the same category as like, the bassist of smashmouth or 3rd eye blind. sure they're adequate but they're not on any of our top 10 lists. honestly i've never heard a female bassist play anything even remotely challenging. i'm still waiting. the one that comes closest is Meshell Ndegeocello. but she's as close to a dude as you can get. her shaved head, wife beaters, muscles and mannerisms all seem to me like she could kick just about every guy's ass on this board!
anyway, those are my thoughts...

I think this betrays incredible "double standards" - so if a guy plays solid supportive lines, that fit the songs do we complain that he is not challenging enough? But if a woman tried to play as well as a man she might get classed as too butch!!

You can't win can you!!

I have seen and even taken lessons/classes with women bass players who are extremeley challenging players. You are just moving in the wrong circles of music - so why should women be interested in rock/punk/metal etc - which is a very macho/competitive culture to start with?!!

But if you look at any big profesional symphony orchestra it will be half male half female and there are hundreds of orchestral women Double Bass players who have reached a level of technical proficieny on the bass way beyond any pop/rock players - but of course they wouldn't shout about this and are interested in music -not pissing competitons!!

Similarly in Jazz, there are many excellent female bass players both on DB and BG.
Juts last night I watched a programe on Digital TV where Wayne Shorter explained how he chose a young female bass guitar player of his touring band a few years ago, as she was the one to pick up his tunes fastest an was the best reader of any auditioned - maybe she was cocentrating on music and not proving how she was better than any man?

Also I have mentioned how I was on Jazz Summerschool last week - there were three bass tutors and two were women - one on DB and one on BG - they played extremeley well in the Jazz club, but never just for the sake of virtuosity and in classes were very helpful, very supportive and never dismissive.... maybe a lesson for some people around here?

 

[john turner]

Originally posted by da_witch

First of all: Paz has more technical chops than Harris can ever dream off, but that is something different.

-shakes head-

wendy wendy wendy. i've seen paz live. i've seen harris live. sorry, but...

i mean, really. steve harris was a pro playing his own music before paz was born.

that being said, the comment that there are no exceptional woman bassists is ignorant in the extreme, and just shows a provinciality and a narrow set of experiences. no offense.

maybe no _famous_ female bassists of skill, but even that's not true. carole kaye, for one. look her up. rana ross was voted best bassist in l.a. in 2000, it's a real tragedy that she passed away, she was really good. i've seen many talented and skilled female bassists at various namm shows, women who's name you might never hear because they just haven't been a part of the 1/100th of 1% of badass players who've gotten the notice of bass player magazine.

there are fewer female bassists of exceptional calibre than male bassists of that calibre, but that's just because there are fewer females who chose to pursue the instrument.

 

[LizzyD]

Thank you da_witch, Bruce and JT. I was trying to come up with a response to these thoughts myself, and opted not to post them because I didn't want to get into an argument.

†ê§† ƒør €chø, you are welcome to peruse my website and listen to my audio samples. I'm no Jaco, but I can hold my end down that's for damn sure. Read my reviews while you're at it too. So what if I'm not playing 32nd note arpeggios or "Flight of the Bumblebee"? I find it much more interesting and fulfilling to play tasteful lines that compliment a great song. As far as I'm concerned, that is what technical proficiency is. Yes, I can and do play fast prog rock stuff. I was raised on Rush and Yes and King Crimson and Dream Theater. But nobody has (as of yet) hired me to play that style - not everyone wants to hear the bass player doing finger exercises. They want soul and groove.

As Bruce implied, and I mentioned in my earlier post, perhaps women musicians aren't noticed so much in the male-dominated pop music industry because they got into music for music's sake, not to try to outdo everybody.

I thought of another couple pro players out there, Gail Ann Dorsey and Sara Lee. Look them up at www.allmusic.com to see what their creds are. They are both great session players that you've probably never heard of because they haven't been on the cover of Bass Player.

 

[ShockBlueXterra]

I am a female bassplayer and I play heavy metal.. HOwever, my bandmates are guys.

 

[ShockBlueXterra]

Regarding on what some people think..I DO play bass and read tab... I have been playing bass since I was 19 yrs old... I didn't take up bass to get lais.. I took up bass, cuz the band I played drums for needed a bassist ,cuz the bassist left and the only person we could find wanted to play drums, so I traded my sticks for a bass.

 

[Jonesy4fnk]

I saw an amazing woman bass player open for Victor Wooten, I think her name is MC Divinity. Great chops and good soulful grooves, plus she can rap like crazy over it all.

Woman or man if its good playing I'll dig it.

 

[slugworth]

Chicks can't play bass. Everybody knows that.

 

[john turner]

Originally posted by slugworth
Chicks can't play bass. Everybody knows that.

yeah, their little yellow wing tips can't reach the strings.

 

[slugworth]

THEY DON'T HAVE ANY FINGERS!

 

[†ê§† ƒør €chø]

Originally posted by da_witch

"First of all: Paz has more technical chops than Harris can ever dream off, but that is something different."
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you're right, that IS something different. i think we can safely call it delusional.
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"Second of all: I have a problem with people who think good female players are not there because they have never heard of them...a bit narrowminded."

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i never said i don't believe there are good female bassists. i even cited one in my 1st post, remember? i would even say Paz is good. just not as good as all the male bassists i mentioned.

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"No offense though, but people tend to forget that since the bass and guitar was introduced, we were still living a world where people expect the female to stay at home and watch the kids."

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no offense taken; what kind of world are we in now?! i guess i still think if a woman has a baby she WOULD stay home to raise it. not that she would HAVE to, but if she didn't want to then why have a baby?!
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"Musical instruments like bass and guitar where not allowed for females, they could play piano of violin or whatever."
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this, too, strikes me as delusional. it's not like 50 years ago when the bass was invented we lived in a primitive society where females weren't allowed to touch weapons or tools or guitars.
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"And Kim Clarke is a fully recognised jazz player and comparing her to jaco is just stupid."
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is it just stupid that you didn't realize you could have substituted jaco's name with any other of the players i mentioned? that's what i meant.
and "fully recognized" is debateable.
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"Jaco was inovative back than, but he is not that special from a technical point of view. Every classical trained bassplayer can play his stuff."
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ehh...
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"And when I say I will post an mp'3 as soon as I am done with the recordings with my band doesn't mean I am "challenging" you as a player...give me a break! Music ain't a battle.
If I post something it is just because I am proud of it and to let you here females can do more than just banging on there E string."
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that's what i'm waiting for!
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"And than again: I am also sick and tired of this whole gender thing."
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we live on a planet populated by humans of 2 genders. get used to it.
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"You are good or you are not.
It all depends on what kind of music you like and wich musicans have inspired you.
For me that will be Myung, Bynoe, Levin etc. so obviously technical abbility of playing is very important to me."
__________________________________________________
i agree with you there. and i'm still waiting to hear a female bassist play as well as john myung, tony levin, victor wooten, geddy lee, etc, etc, etc...
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"Another lovely lady for you here..."
Invalid Link Removed
__________________________________________________

__________________________________________________
"With love,

Wendy"

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xoxoxo

 

[†ê§† ƒør €chø]

Originally posted by LizzyD
Thank you da_witch, Bruce and JT. I was trying to come up with a response to these thoughts myself, and opted not to post them because I didn't want to get into an argument.

†ê§† ƒør €chø, you are welcome to peruse my website and listen to my audio samples. I'm no Jaco, but I can hold my end down that's for damn sure. Read my reviews while you're at it too. So what if I'm not playing 32nd note arpeggios or "Flight of the Bumblebee"? I find it much more interesting and fulfilling to play tasteful lines that compliment a great song. As far as I'm concerned, that is what technical proficiency is. Yes, I can and do play fast prog rock stuff. I was raised on Rush and Yes and King Crimson and Dream Theater. But nobody has (as of yet) hired me to play that style - not everyone wants to hear the bass player doing finger exercises. They want soul and groove.

As Bruce implied, and I mentioned in my earlier post, perhaps women musicians aren't noticed so much in the male-dominated pop music industry because they got into music for music's sake, not to try to outdo everybody.

I thought of another couple pro players out there, Gail Ann Dorsey and Sara Lee. Look them up at www.allmusic.com to see what their creds are. They are both great session players that you've probably never heard of because they haven't been on the cover of Bass Player.

hey lizzy-
i like you. you're good. i don't really care for any of those songs but i like your feel on "thrown flight" particularly. the link to your lizzy and pete page isn't working. do you have any samples of YOUR music? or even just you jamming? i would really like to hear you play some of your favorite rush and dream theater riffs. especially geddy. myung is technically precise but doesn't have the kind of "feel" i gravitate to. which is one of the reasons i'm curious about this whole issue. i'd really like to hear more feminine feel backed up by technical ability. i'm tired of all these guys!!
will you listen to my mp3s? i recently finished a demo of original songs all composed on the 6 string bass. i'd like some feedback from other bassists. [that's an open invitation]
just copy and paste the link!


i'm looking up Gail Ann Dorsey and Sara Lee but can't seem to find any mp3 samples, i'll keep checking...

 

[velocipede_3]

Test For Echo's assertion that superior female bassists in the same league as the bass gods he mentioned is incontrovertably true. The fact that only Paz was offered as a gifted female shredder only hammers his point home (does anyone here really believe that Paz can smoke Harris? What particular lick did Wendy have in mind when she said this?) Simply put, there are no female bass gods (or goddesses) in the spotlight today. None. However, TFE could have softened his seeming misogyny by acknowledging that there is gender bias within the music industry. To deny that males haven't had a leg up when it comes to succeeding in rock and jazz is like denying George Bush stole the 2000 election. It's pretty bleedin' obvious.

So, TFE, let's acknowledge that "Victoria" Wooten might just be at home sending out her demos and struggling to be a rock star. Let's acknowledge that the only thing that might be preventing her from achieving fame is the fact that she's female, possibly not too attractive, maybe a little old, too fat (remember, "old" in femaledom means age 30, according to most cavemen...oops, I mean "gentlemen"). Let's face it, if you're a dude, you don't have to be a looker. Has anyone seen Abe Laboriel? Les Claypool? Vic Wooten? Women are judged much more harshly on their appearance compared to men. Any man who can't concede this obvious fact has some issues with misogyny that he'd be wise to examine.

Just some thoughts

--velocipede3

 

[ShockBlueXterra]

First off, we are NOT chicks , we are women! and second, we can do whatever a man can do.

 

[LizzyD]

Originally posted by †ê§† ƒør €chø
hey lizzy-
i like you. you're good. i don't really care for any of those songs but i like your feel on "thrown flight" particularly. the link to your lizzy and pete page isn't working.

It is working for me now. Thanks for letting me know. And thanks for the compliment.

do you have any samples of YOUR music?

A few [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] You're welcome to order a copy of my CD to hear more.

or even just you jamming?

Try these. Absolutely just jamming, complete improv and screwing around for fun. Not the most genius stuff, but a little Geddy-fied.

i would really like to hear you play some of your favorite rush and dream theater riffs. especially geddy.

I'd love to, but if I sat around recording myself playing Geddy's riffs, I wouldn't get much done would I? At this point in my life I've moved beyond this sort of thing. I was doing that in high school, but unless I was in a Rush cover band I just don't do this. It comes up when I jam with people though. You should hear the rehearsals I have with people.

myung is technically precise but doesn't have the kind of "feel" i gravitate to. which is one of the reasons i'm curious about this whole issue.

Honestly, I haven't learned John Myung's lines much. I suppose I'm too busy listening to Portnoy and Petrucci and Myung gets buried underneath. I like his playing, but I don't care for his sound that much, seem like he's only given a tiny bit of bandwidth in the frequency spectrum of that band. Love the music though. In fact, I'm seeing them this evening with Queensryche.

i'd really like to hear more feminine feel backed up by technical ability. i'm tired of all these guys!!

So you're saying women have a different feel? I have seen enough female musicians to know that they cannot be categorized or generalized, any more than male players can. I'm sure there are plenty of men who can play with a "feminine" feel, but would you know it if you heard it?

will you listen to my mp3s? i recently finished a demo of original songs all composed on the 6 string bass. i'd like some feedback from other bassists. [that's an open invitation]
just copy and paste the link!

I'll try to. I'm on dialup, so it's a bit slow for me, but I will check it out.

i'm looking up Gail Ann Dorsey and Sara Lee but can't seem to find any mp3 samples, i'll keep checking...

Yeah, you'd probably need to get the discography of what they'd played on and then look up those particular albums. Gail Ann Dorsey played with David Bowie, and Sara Lee has done some Indigo Girls albums and worked with Robert Fripp.

Velocipede_3 has hit the nail right on the head.

 

[†ê§† ƒør €chø]

Originally posted by velocipede_3
Test For Echo's assertion that superior female bassists in the same league as the bass gods he mentioned is incontrovertably true. The fact that only Paz was offered as a gifted female shredder only hammers his point home (does anyone here really believe that Paz can smoke Harris? What particular lick did Wendy have in mind when she said this?) Simply put, there are no female bass gods (or goddesses) in the spotlight today. None. However, TFE could have softened his seeming misogyny by acknowledging that there is gender bias within the music industry. To deny that males haven't had a leg up when it comes to succeeding in rock and jazz is like denying George Bush stole the 2000 election. It's pretty bleedin' obvious.

So, TFE, let's acknowledge that "Victoria" Wooten might just be at home sending out her demos and struggling to be a rock star. Let's acknowledge that the only thing that might be preventing her from achieving fame is the fact that she's female, possibly not too attractive, maybe a little old, too fat (remember, "old" in femaledom means age 30, according to most cavemen...oops, I mean "gentlemen"). Let's face it, if you're a dude, you don't have to be a looker. Has anyone seen Abe Laboriel? Les Claypool? Vic Wooten? Women are judged much more harshly on their appearance compared to men. Any man who can't concede this obvious fact has some issues with misogyny that he'd be wise to examine.

Just some thoughts

--velocipede3

i concede that women are judged more harshly on their appearance than men and that there is a gender bias in the music industry. but i don't think that's the point. i don't think like that. there are some issues with misogyny at play here but i don't believe they are as simple as you think. apparently, i SEEM mysogynic because i don't acknowledge that misogyny exists. huh?!
it's as if you want to give all women a handicap when it comes to playing bass right from the start. do you see?
and just to clarify, i think you mean "sexism" rather than "misogyny". "sexism" is defined as Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender, i.e., discrimination against women; and "misogyny" is simply defined as Hatred of Women. i do believe that you were just in error and not insulting me by implying i have a hatred of women.
once again, the most talented female bassist, in my estimation, is Me'shell NdegéOcello. when i mentioned this before, i was not thinking within the confines of sexism or of an entertainment industry based on infantile values. just females playing bass. i kinda think that Me'shell isn't thinking in these limiting terms, either. she's just about as attractive as victor wooten! but the way you're thinking about it, she should still be an unknown sending out her demos getting constantly rejected 'cause she doesn't look like paz.
so, hopefully having illustrated and diffused this fallacy of logic, i ask again, where are all the female bass gods?! maybe it's that the male ego is more competitive by nature as lizzyD hinted? so females are not as driven to push their playing to it's limits? somehow i think not. i think the players that are truly virtuosic got there on their own without the thought of out-playing everybody else as a motivational factor. so the way i look at the world we live in, if "victoria" wooten IS out there, the only thing holding her back is her. she's probably thinking "she's female, possibly not too attractive, maybe a little old, too fat".
personally i can't acknowledge this. it sounds like a cop-out to me...

 

[†ê§† ƒør €chø]

hey lizzyD-
you are definitely one of the better female bassists i've heard. wendy needs to listen to your playing on "ghost in a can" 'cause you definitely blow Paz away!!
are you not set up to record at home? i could record 10 of your favorite rush basslines and have mp3 samples of them in 10 minutes! if you're not so inclined i understand but i don't believe time is the real factor.
you're right about the feminine feel thing, i guess i just mean i want to see more female bassists playing more challenging lines.
let me know what you think of MY playing when you can.
and just for thought, if you think Velocipede_3 has hit the nail right on the head, you may be limiting yourself in more ways than you know...

 

[velocipede_3]

TFE,

I think we might be straying from the point here. I’ve not the mentality nor the time to pursue a debate wherein my words (half serious to begin with) are misinterpreted as insults. I used the term “men” in general. And you quite correctly pointed out that I said “seeming misogyny,” meaning your words had the APPEARANCE of sexism for two reasons: 1) You didn’t acknowledge music industry sexism as a possible reason for the shortage. 2) You appointed Me'shell NdegéOcello as the only true female bass god and, in the same breath, dethroned her with your puerile characterization of her as a male. In other words, so averse is she to conforming to the typical image that males demand (thin, buxom, flowing caucasian hair, half-naked or naked), that you’re more comfortable thinking of her as a dude who might kick your ass. Certainly no subconscious misogyny or infantile values there. How refreshingly progressive.

When I made my assertions, I wasn’t thinking in absolutist terms. Obviously SOME female artists are going to break through. BTW, Thanks for cementing my point, as she’s no typical artist. Based on her chops alone, she likely would not be as recognizable to us today. It’s her unique songwriting and mellifluous voice and having to work twice as hard as any guy that put her on the map…not to mention that she probably built her core audience before any male record execs could pull out the veto stamp. Suddenly it dawned on them she was profitable.

You’re trying to make me sound like I believe that my gender should be pitied because of their disadvantage, when all I’m really saying is that there’s a significant gender bias in the record industry. Obviously, that’s bound to affect the success rate of women bassists. You really mean to say that a chick with a beer belly, like that drummer from Pantera (a fabulous musician, no argument there) is just as likely to achieve musical success as her male counterpart? I don’t really think you believe that. It flies in the face of all empirical evidence. And spare me the “women-don’t-succeed-because-they-have-rotten-self-image” canard. That’s sexist and makes females sound inherently weak. If sexism is as pervasive as you admit it is, then why is it so hard for you to admit that THAT might explain the dearth of famous, technically proficient female bassists? It’s not that big of a leap, my friend. Go ahead, jump.

--velocipede_3

 

[†ê§† ƒør €chø]

I think we might be straying from the point here.

i think one of us is, definitely.

I’ve not the mentality nor the time to pursue a debate wherein my words (half serious to begin with) are misinterpreted as insults.

i agree, your mentality seems a bit hostile, bordering on hysterical. your level of comprehension is a bit frightening as well. i clearly said i believed you were in ERROR and NOT insulting me. after this last post of yours, i'm not so sure. it sounds like you're having a hard time dealing with your perceived reality wherein all men are inherently misogynic. and you better be more than "half serious" when you volley a word like misogyny around. it means HATRED OF WOMEN. that's serious. you're the one with these issues, not me.

And you quite correctly pointed out that I said “seeming misogyny,” meaning your words had the APPEARANCE of sexism for two reasons:

again you use these 2 terms interchangeably. they are not the same. "seeming misogyny" DOES NOT MEAN "appearence of sexism". this leads me to believe the only misogynist here is you. must be a pricey therapy bill.

1) You didn’t acknowledge music industry sexism as a possible reason for the shortage

yes i did. i conceded that women are judged more harshly on their appearance than men and that there is a gender bias in the music industry, just as there is EVERYWHERE. it's omnipresent. again, we live on a planet populated by humans of 2 genders.

2) You appointed Me'shell NdegéOcello as the only true female bass god

no i didn't. stop exaggerating, it's getting you into trouble.

in the same breath, dethroned her with your puerile characterization of her as a male. In other words, so averse is she to conforming to the typical image that males demand (thin, buxom, flowing caucasian hair, half-naked or naked), that you’re more comfortable thinking of her as a dude who might kick your ass.

i made an observation that she has masculine traits. i also observe males that have feminine traits. the "in other words" part is all you and probably where the therapy bill gets outrageous.
although i never went into practice, my major was psychology and offhand it seems to me likely that you feel constrained by this perceived image that men "demand" of you and by not meeting it, you hate yourself for being a woman, hence your flagrant misusage of the word misogyny.

You’re trying to make me sound like I believe that my gender should be pitied because of their disadvantage, when all I’m really saying is that there’s a significant gender bias in the record industry.

you're saying some pretty outlandish things and i'm just making observations about the things you are saying. sure there is a gender bias, EVERYWHERE. but that's not the point. this is your issue so you can't see through it. THE GENDER BIAS IS NOT THE REASON THERE ARE NO FEMALE BASSISTS ON PAR WITH THE MALE PLAYERS I MENTIONED.

You really mean to say that a chick with a beer belly, like that drummer from Pantera (a fabulous musician, no argument there) is just as likely to achieve musical success as her male counterpart?

yes.

I don’t really think you believe that.

i know, i can see your denial working hard to protect your perceived reality in which you are a victum.

And spare me the “women-don’t-succeed-because-they-have-rotten-self-image” canard.

i never said this, this was from your hypothetical example of a "victoria" wooten, remember? funny how you can see the absurdity of it when i extrapolate from YOUR mindset!
it's really obvious that you're getting over-emotional about this, you didn't even fully understand my post before you responded. i'm probably the least "stereotypically male" guy you could ever meet but just because we're talking about the female/male duality (which we will never get away from, you must come to terms with it) you start seeing red and throwing out emotionally-charged terms like "misogyny". i mean really. i want you to print this thread and take it with you to your therapist. and if you don't have a therapist, get one. (you'll want a female therapist but you'll make more progress with a male) then maybe these issues won't spill out of you onto a public message board on the internet where it's really not appropriate or at all flattering to you. oh yeah, for whatever it's worth, i didn't even know you were a female until this last absurd post...

 

[jenderfazz]

Lizzy, I'm listening to Ghost in a Can, and I must say, that is amazing playing. Very nice bassline, and great variations (definitely Geddy inspired!). Are you using your Geddy bass on that one? Because it sounds truly amazing. Keep it up, damn that is good music.