Woman Profiled on 9/11

[john grey]

Perhaps a greater issue is profiling of anyone at any time appropriate?

It could be that with given limitations, a narrowing of choices in an investigation makes better use of resources. however that way of thinking opens the door to a general lack of honesty and openness in a society.

If living in a society that promotes dishonesty becomes the answer to a complex problem we create further levels of problems & a group, class, or individual distinction becomes the hallmark for a 2nd class of citizen due to the actions of a few.

It may be more productive to encourage more Islamic clergy to speak openly due to the inclusiveness of [& within] a society rather than hide [or be silent]due to stigmatization..

 

[Jazz Ad]

No, both statements are correct and if you'll do a little reading of the Koran, Hadith and Sira you'll find the same.

Indeed, the Koran specifically recommends that you don't take non-believers for friends and show no pity for Christians and Jews if you were to fight them. But it doesn't ask Muslims to get at war.

If you'd read my post you would have seen that we're on the same page on that point. There are many muslims who have no interest in Jihad, but their books command it and in recent times, notably the rise of the ayatolla Kohmeini, have been receiving ever more instruction into the conquest related elements in said books.

What you describe isn't the teaching of the Koran. Jihad means striving, as in inner striving, fight with yourself to elevate yourself. It is only used with the meaning of holy war in western countries. For Muslims is has a much wider sense.
The Koran teaches a benevolent proselytism through dialog and explanation and never judge unbelievers but let God sort his own.

"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided."
Sura 16:125

I would describe the tone of the Koran as militant but not belligerent.

 

[Relic]

Not a tangent at all and it's interesting to note that the biggest defenders of islam are those who have done no research, finding one of two choices of public consensus to be good enough for them.

History having gone out of vogue is replaced by the laughing of fools who would have you believe that educated concern is equivalent to paranoia.

Or conversely the biggest foes are ones that did research and read into it what they wanted to read into it all along?

 

[Akami]

Indeed, the Koran specifically recommends that you don't take non-believers for friends and show no pity for Christians and Jews if you were to fight them. But it doesn't ask Muslims to get at war.What you describe isn't the teaching of the Koran. Jihad means striving, as in inner striving, fight with yourself to elevate yourself. It is only used with the meaning of holy war in western countries. For Muslims is has a much wider sense.
The Koran teaches a benevolent proselytism through dialog and explanation and never judge unbelievers but let God sort his own.

This is the main point of contention, which many of them can't agree on, but the thing is that to be a proper muslim, they are told to emulate their religions founder, and that would require putting to the sword any who will not allow themselves to be subjugated by islam.

Or conversely the biggest foes are ones that did research and read into it what they wanted to read into it all along?

That's reading a lot into my statements, to suggest that I've deliberately distorted what I found and cherry-picked for damning sections of the books that I started looking into in hopes of actually finding that they did represent a religion of peace. They don't represent a religion of peace, and the only person who could think that in all honesty would be someone who has little knowledge of the content therein.
Ironic that you find it easy to cast aspersions towards me, but have nothing but trust for those who would kill you given the chance. Not all muslims are violent people, but the intent in their trilogy is, and comparisons with the life of their prophet will show that is definitely by design, since he is by all accounts the one they are to strive to be like.

 

[Relic]

That's reading a lot into my statements, to suggest that I've deliberately distorted what I found and cherry-picked for damning sections of the books that I started looking into in hopes of actually finding that they did represent a religion of peace. They don't represent a religion of peace, and the only person who could think that in all honesty would be someone who has little knowledge of the content therein.
Ironic that you find it easy to cast aspersions towards me, but have nothing but trust for those who would kill you given the chance. Not all muslims are violent people, but the intent in their trilogy is, and comparisons with the life of their prophet will show that is definitely by design, since he is by all accounts the one they are to strive to be like.

I never said that you deliberately distorted what you read per se. I'm saying that you are simply believing what you want to believe - ie looking at one aspect that fits your belief about Muslims while ignoring a universe of other information that's infinitely more key to understanding what's going on in the world. ie "recent history"

You're even doing it now with my posts - "I have nothing but trust for those who would kill me"

Notice something? I never denied that there are terrorists about who commit atrocities on behalf of their religion, I even handed to you that I really have never read the Koran cover to cover so I can't confirm or deny what you say with 100% accuracy.
I simply stated to you that understanding what's going on in the world requires a much wider view than what's written in someone's holy book. I don't really think that that's too hard to understand.

 

[Akami]

I never said that you deliberately distorted what you read per se. I'm saying that you are simply believing what you want to believe - ie looking at one aspect that fits your belief about Muslims while ignoring a universe of other information that's infinitely more key to understanding what's going on in the world. ie "recent history"

You're even doing it now with my posts - "I have nothing but trust for those who would kill me"

Notice something? I never denied that there are terrorists about who commit atrocities on behalf of their religion, I even handed to you that I really have never read the Koran cover to cover so I can't confirm or deny what you say with 100% accuracy.
I simply stated to you that understanding what's going on in the world requires a much wider view than what's written in someone's holy book. I don't really think that that's too hard to understand.

Okay, I really get the feeling that this is one of those issues that we could enjoy more in person than in a thread on the internet.

Just to let you know, if I'd come away with what I originally wanted to believe, then I'd be telling you that message of islam is peace. Unfortunately that isn't the case, but since I can't convince you that I didn't come in with my mind already made up, please at least do a little study into it yourself and in particular make note of the fact that more than half of the texts in question spend their time talking about us (non-muslims), and not in very flattering terms. Moreso, make note of the fact that the greatest (self-proclaimed) experts on these texts, their religious leaders, say exactly what I'm saying.

When I made the statement suggesting that you give trust to the wrong people, you must remember - it's only wrong to lie to another muslim, but not to anyone else, and it appears that you've accepted the lies being spread about how anyone suggesting that what I say is true is blindly full of prejudicial hate.

I guess you're doing a little of what I like to do too, which is play devils advocate when you're not sure if someone else isn't suffering from a case of tunnel-vision, which I have been guilty of, but have also spent much time and effort throughout my life trying to correct any mistaken thinking on my part due to lack of full and accurate input, due to my own faulted self, or lack of available materials. At very least, I do not come to conclusions strongly held without having spent a good deal of energy on looking for facts and or evidence to sway me away from my convictions.

That said, I'm always open to fresh input and hope you aren't taking my defense of my views as being negatively pointed at you.

 

[burk48237]

One can go to any Barnes&Nobles in USA and do the same.
You know, liberty of speech and stuff.

Totally irrelevant and ridiculous.

A religious bookstore or table inside a religious institution is selling products endorsed by the leadership of that institution. You won't find the God Delusion in a Baptist church bookstore. There is no excuse for the continued unabated promotion of virulent anti-Semitism within Islam.

 

[Relic]

Okay, I really get the feeling that this is one of those issues that we could enjoy more in person than in a thread on the internet.

Just to let you know, if I'd come away with what I originally wanted to believe, then I'd be telling you that message of islam is peace. Unfortunately that isn't the case, but since I can't convince you that I didn't come in with my mind already made up, please at least do a little study into it yourself and in particular make note of the fact that more than half of the texts in question spend their time talking about us (non-muslims), and not in very flattering terms. Moreso, make note of the fact that the greatest (self-proclaimed) experts on these texts, their religious leaders, say exactly what I'm saying.

When I made the statement suggesting that you give trust to the wrong people, you must remember - it's only wrong to lie to another muslim, but not to anyone else, and it appears that you've accepted the lies being spread about how anyone suggesting that what I say is true is blindly full of prejudicial hate.

I guess you're doing a little of what I like to do too, which is play devils advocate when you're not sure if someone else isn't suffering from a case of tunnel-vision, which I have been guilty of, but have also spent much time and effort throughout my life trying to correct any mistaken thinking on my part due to lack of full and accurate input, due to my own faulted self, or lack of available materials. At very least, I do not come to conclusions strongly held without having spent a good deal of energy on looking for facts and or evidence to sway me away from my convictions.

That said, I'm always open to fresh input and hope you aren't taking my defense of my views as being negatively pointed at you.

No, not at all. I'm actually enjoying the conversation to be honest.

To just repeat myself, I'm not even really debating what you say on Islam either way because I truly do not know. It sounds a bit like "paranoia" to me but since I haven't studied it in detail, I really can't say for sure. But that's not my point. My point is simply that to understand the "big picture" - what's led to our recent history, you have to look beyond one aspect.
Not doing so is incredibly shortsighted and even a bit dangerous.

 

[burk48237]

Aborgman No.

What most Islamic mosques teach is just how most Muslims live.

Extremist mosques are just as uncommon as extremist Muslims.

While I would agree they are fairly uncommon in the US, they are still very common in the West. DVD's on "how to beat your wives" are best sellers in the Muslim community in the UK. Jewish immigration is at a high in Europe not seen since the pre-holacaust days due to rising anti-Semitism. These Muslims are getting taught somewhere.

Aborgman Islam doesn't believe anything.

SOME interpret Islam as pushing aside a separation of church and state, others - not so much. See Turkey for example.

...and there are LOTS of Christians (even non-Fundamentalists) who have serious issues with separation of church and state (see: school prayer, etc.).

...and separation of church and state is radically NEW idea in Christianity. Throughout the great majority of the existence of Christianity church-state separation was a non-starter.

Actually Turkey is becomming more Islamic not less so, especially in it's rural areas (along with this it is becomming more anti-Semitic). And I would suggest you look at a picture of Cairo Unniversites first graduating class in 1978 with every women bare headed. In 2004 not one women had her head uncovered for the same picture (shown in the economist). My fear is that Islam has already had it's "reformation" and the radicals have won.

Aborgman Except there are.

ADAMS

Never mind the numerous US based progressive Muslim organizations.

Thanks for the link, it was good to see.

Here are a few quotes from a leading Muslim femminist on the acceptence of women and radicalism in Islam in the US:

We have seen the encroachment of extremist interpretations of Islam into our American Muslim community, and as a community we have largely sat on the fence about these very serious issues. I know because, for most of my life, I sat on the fence, calculating, like many in our community, that it was just easier to look the other way than confront difficult truths. Starting in the 1970s, I saw puritanical, intolerant ideologies creep into my community. I also watched as many moderate Muslims simply cowered or walked away, intimidated into thinking they were less pious or faithful—or concluding it wasn’t worth the bother.

It’s never easy to speak honestly about the “dirty laundry” in any community. In 2003, when I wrote about sexism and intolerance at my local mosque in Morgantown, West Virginia, a moderate young Egyptian-American attorney met me at the local Panera Bread. He told me that he supported me but he said, “Stop writing.” His rationalization: “You are shaming the community,” he said.

This was the reaction at a large Mosque in the DC area to her pink protest "prayer in"

Elsayed then told the men, “This is what we talked about in the khutbah (sermon) yesterday … They are among those people aligned with Satan and want to influence 1 billion Muslims.” We knew how significant that statement could be. We considered it a verbal threat, giving men grounds by which to assault us. In March 2010, a Saudi cleric said it was acceptable to kill Muslims—like us—who accept gender mixing.

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[Marlat]

DVD's on "how to beat your wives" are best sellers in the Muslim community in the UK.

source?

 

[Relic]

source?

Yeah no kidding! I want one too!

 

[aborgman]

Not a tangent at all and it's interesting to note that the biggest defenders of islam are those who have done no research, finding one of two choices of public consensus to be good enough for them.

Yep... no research at all...

I don't happen to live right next to the largest Muslim population outside the middle east or anything.

 

[aborgman]

While I would agree they are fairly uncommon in the US, they are still very common in the West.

No, they aren't.

Christian Reformed churches are "very common" in Grand Rapids. Extremist mosques are not "very common" in the west.

Actually Turkey is becomming more Islamic not less so, especially in it's rural areas (along with this it is becomming more anti-Semitic). And I would suggest you look at a picture of Cairo Unniversites first graduating class in 1978 with every women bare headed. In 2004 not one women had her head uncovered for the same picture (shown in the economist). My fear is that Islam has already had it's "reformation" and the radicals have won.

One could have easily said the same thing about Christianity during the dark ages.

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Really? The Daily Beast and Peter King? Oy.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Actually Turkey is becomming more Islamic not less so, especially in it's rural areas (along with this it is becomming more anti-Semitic). And I would suggest you look at a picture of Cairo Unniversites first graduating class in 1978 with every women bare headed. In 2004 not one women had her head uncovered for the same picture (shown in the economist). My fear is that Islam has already had it's "reformation" and the radicals have won.

Did it ever occur to you that women covering their heads is an expression of freedom of choice and religion? For about eighty years Kemal Attaturk and successive military and civilian governments forced Turks to dress as westerners and avoid public displays of religion in attempt to Westernize the country.

Turkey spent decades trying to join the European Union and was turned down repeatedly. The current Turkish government is reflecting the people's attitude that they have wasted enough time trying to be part of the West. Now Turkey is once again a leader in the Middle East. From an economic standpoint, not joining the Euro Zone was a great blessing since Turkey is currently experiencing a strong economy. If anything, we might see Greece or the Balkans looking East as they have in the past if the Euro Zone gets weaker.

I hope this was not overly political, but discussing Muslims as if they simply spend all their time reading the Koran and have no concerns about other issues is just silly to me.

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Cheese, get out of this thread, and take that 'logic' thing with you!

 

[macaroni tony]

I saw a thing on the Crusades last night. It was pretty interesting stuff

 

[burk48237]

No, they aren't.

Christian Reformed churches are "very common" in Grand Rapids. Extremist mosques are not "very common" in the west.





One could have easily said the same thing about Christianity during the dark ages.






Really? The Daily Beast and Peter King? Oy.

I expected more from you than an ad homineim attack on the source which you obviously didn't bother to go to. Both articles were written by a Muslim women activist who lives in DC (the only reason Peter Kings name came up was the one article was about his hearings). And the Beast publishes a wide variety of opinions, including authors like John Avalon, Peter Bienhart etc.

When I'm talking about the West I'm referring to places like Malmo or Oslo where gays and Jews no longer feel safe in many immigrant areas. I can guarantee you those mosques are not teaching Jihad as the battle "for inner striving". And there are plenty of them. According to the Economists, over 50% of all Pakistani immigrants in the UK are in second cousin marriages performed in the UK, they are bringing Sharia with them, and it is being reinforced in their western communities.

 

[burk48237]

Did it ever occur to you that women covering their heads is an expression of freedom of choice and religion? For about eighty years Kemal Attaturk and successive military and civilian governments forced Turks to dress as westerners and avoid public displays of religion in attempt to Westernize the country.

Turkey spent decades trying to join the European Union and was turned down repeatedly. The current Turkish government is reflecting the people's attitude that they have wasted enough time trying to be part of the West. Now Turkey is once again a leader in the Middle East. From an economic standpoint, not joining the Euro Zone was a great blessing since Turkey is currently experiencing a strong economy. If anything, we might see Greece or the Balkans looking East as they have in the past if the Euro Zone gets weaker.

I hope this was not overly political, but discussing Muslims as if they simply spend all their time reading the Koran and have no concerns about other issues is just silly to me.

If your reference is to Muslims in the US it is certainly correct. But in much of the Arab world what is taught is that everything is connected to Islam, and that the source of all their problems is the Wests and the Jews "war" with Islam. Many of the Egyptians who had a problem with Muburek complained he was a "puppet of the Jews" the Libyan revolutionaries have made similar statements about Ghadaffi.

I have no problem with Muslim garb being a free choice. I have a big problem with women "choosing" because of fear of beatings or retaliation. The fact that EVERY women graduate from Cairo's largest university choose to wear traditional Muslim garb is indeed troubling. A recent poll of Egypt claimed that a majority of Egyptians believe a) the Jews are responsible for 9/11 b) it was a great Muslim victory, (how anyone with a brain can reconcile these positions is beyond me.) c) that OBL is still alive.

If Turkey is becoming less Islamic why have sales of Mein Kempf exploded there? And for the record it is a best seller through out the Arab world.

Mein Kampf, the book Hitler wrote in prison before he rose to power in 1933, has become a bestseller in Turkey, provoking consternation.

The dreams of creating a master race are being snapped up by young Turks. Its publishers believe that more than 100,000 copies have been sold in the past two months.

Mein Kampf sales soar in Turkey | World news | The Guardian

This is not to diminish their concerns about the AKP, whose origins in radical Islam are not a matter of dispute. Erdogan's political mentor was former prime minister Necmettin Erbakan, who came to power promising to "rescue Turkey from the unbelievers of Europe," wrest power from "imperialists and Zionists," and launch a jihad to recapture Jerusalem. But the AKP says it has outgrown these sentiments and is now fully committed to democracy and a looser version of secularism. It swears it does not seek to impose a fundamentalist tyranny.

I would not have believed them before. But I have lived here for the past two years. Their have been no public floggings, no amputations of limbs in the public square, no jihad against Zionists and American imperialists. The government has confined its enthusiasm for Islamic law to the most modest of sops to its Islamic base; its most egregious offense has been a desultory attempt to criminalize adultery that was quickly abandoned.

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I hope Turkey and the rest of the Islamic world is becoming less extreme, but frankly I doubt it. I just don't see evidence of it in Turkeys foreign policy (continued support of Syria) or the anecdotal stories of the rise of extremism in the rural parts of the country. But I think at best it's a mixed bag. And sadly in most of the Arab world the regimes have had a devils bargain with extremist that has left them in charge of most of the educational and cultural institutions.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

If Turkey is becoming less Islamic why have sales of Mein Kempf exploded there? And for the record it is a best seller through out the Arab world.../QUOTE]


Although Turks are not Semitic, I have always thought that calling Arabs Anti-Semitic was silly since they are just as much a Semtic people as Jews.

How on earth is Mein Kampf Islamic? It may be symptomatic of a dislike Jews, but Hitler has nothing to do with the faith of Islam.

 

[aborgman]

I expected more from you than an ad homineim attack on the source which you obviously didn't bother to go to. Both articles were written by a Muslim women activist who lives in DC (the only reason Peter Kings name came up was the one article was about his hearings). And the Beast publishes a wide variety of opinions, including authors like John Avalon, Peter Bienhart etc.

The Daily Beast is gargbage of the World Net Daily level.

I don't read the Enquirer either.

When I'm talking about the West I'm referring to places like Malmo or Oslo where gays and Jews no longer feel safe in many immigrant areas.

"Very Common"

According to the Economists, over 50% of all Pakistani immigrants in the UK are in second cousin marriages performed in the UK,

Ummm... so what?

20 states in the USA allow FIRST cousin marriages, and all allow second cousin marriages.

Heck, the last research I read estimated that 80% of all marriages in the history of humanity have been between second cousins or closer.