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"Wood and tone" experiment

I think a few people are overthinking things a little.. ok, a lot.

The hypothesis presented on the first page is correct: "There is no differential, tonal effect between different species of wood when used as a body wood in the use-case of an electric bass guitar."

You're gonna need a spectrum analyzer.

You're gonna need a CNC machine for making the test parts.

You're gonna need to run multiple samples of each wood, you're gonna need to label them differently from each other. Sample #1 and #2 and #9, etc., work OK. Keep a table of what's what. You're gonna need to have someone else interpret your results who has never seen that table. That's your confidential data.

Isolate your body wood because neck wood tests are a different experiment. Perhaps use a metal neck. Use the same hardware on all of the tests (this is where the CNC comes in - you will need to *precisely* locate the components in the same spots on evey sample).

Did I miss anything?

Perhaps forget the plucking machine, as attack measurements won't tell you that there is no tonal differences in wood. Magnetically excite the string using a known-frequency sine wave transducer: think "speaker coil", or "reverb tank". This way you will be able to easily measure the differences between input wave and output wave.

When you measure, if you like, you can input both waves through a differential amplifier to output only the differences between the input and output. Once you've run all samples this way, you may run each of these resulting signals against each other as this will eliminate the effects of the hardware, pickups, any buzzing caused by the excitation mechanism, etc., as they will be common to both signals and put the resulting signals through the spectrum analyzer. That should tell you what the differences really are between the signals.

If body wood does not have enough non-negligible effect to be measurable with modern differential amplifiers and spectrum analyzers, they will be 0.

If the hypothesis is wrong, they will be other than zero. The ratio of magnitude of the resulting signals from the second differential tests and the original signal will tell you to what degree it does or does not matter (akin to a distortion analysis) ... for this body shape and size. But I think the results here could be fairly easily assumed to apply to all body shapes and sizes, with some degree of variance... should the hypothesis above prove incorrect.

The quality of the differential amplifiers and spectrum analyzers is a variable that cannot be controlled out. One must accept that they are of sufficient quality to return meaningful results. There are posts in this thread that indicate a belief that the equipment is going to be better than the human ear for these tests. Very well; if we resort to using the equipment (which if one were to run this experiment, we would), we must also accept the unproven hypothesis that "the gear is better than the ear."

(P.S. I'm squarely in the "wood matters" camp.)
 
:cool:





It's utterly illogical to assume that if a machine can detect a difference, then some humans must be able to as well. So, Beej is correct that the spectral difference could well be moot. Sure, the spectral result would be interesting, but all that really matters is whether any human -- "experts" and audiophiles included -- could detect that difference.

It's illogical, yes, but that is also a second, unrelated experiment. The hypothesis is "there is no difference." If there proves to be a measurable difference, whether anyone can hear it or not is a completely different thing!

First we have to establish that there IS a difference, THEN we can check if anyone can hear it.
 
So the best you can do is run what you think are reasonable tests and then understand that your observation on the outcome of those tests is anecdotal at best and like other tests frequently referenced on TB (i.e. Scrap Lumber test) is completely unscientific and only adds fuel to one side or the other in an on going debate that will never be resolved to the complete satisfaction of either side.

I am satisfied in the knowledge that proof won't happen in any of our lifetimes. Too big an effort, too little payout.

For now, nobody knows for certain... including those who claim they do.
 
I see, Mongo, that unless you and others officially sanctioned with "the golden ear" do the test, it will be meaningless.....the ultimate closing of the goalposts.....

Wrong. That's why the use of an analyzer is important, it takes the vagaries of human hearing variable out of the testing. No "golden ears" required.

Once a difference is demonstrated, whether someone can hear it or not is up to their individual capabilities.
 
I agree, but there's no need to bother with evidence. The goalposts are now closer together than the width of the ball.
No matter what test you do, apparently there's someone out there who can tell, even if the subjects cannot. Unless all humans who are not deaf participate, the test is useless, LOL.

Why are you using facts on a thread on TB :p
If a tree falls in the woods…
What sounds better…
Does the test sound the same to others…
Does a different touch change the data…

Right hand technique and ability are 10,000X more important than wood.
Can you tell the difference between a Squier or real 50's start on a record or does the player make the difference?

Let the crap fly!
 
The analyzer settles nothing.

Wrong, for reasons previously stated.

I know you don't want it to be meaningful because you know the analyzer would show a difference and that would eliminate your argument.

The difference would be proven to exist with some able to hear it and others not depending on the individual hearing capabilities.
 
Oh dear, now that this has moved to the Basses subforum, I'm out. As a scientist, I have no desire to continually re-establish and re-explain experimental procedure to a forum of this volume and lack of attentiveness to detail. :)

No offense, but now that this is here, its back to opinionated speculation and introduction of extraneous variables and controls ad nauseum as all of these threads eventually end up.

Enjoy! :D
 
It's illogical, yes, but that is also a second, unrelated experiment. The hypothesis is "there is no difference." If there proves to be a measurable difference, whether anyone can hear it or not is a completely different thing.

Very few claim that "there is absolutely no difference", and I suspect that those who do would simply point out that human detectability can never be assumed from machine detectability.


As noted I think there's a difference, and it would probably appear on a machine, but the differences are unpredictable and in the real world they only matter to me, so the issue is nothing more than navel-gazing/OCD. :ninja:
 
Wrong, for reasons previously stated.

I know you don't want it to be meaningful because you know the analyzer would show a difference and that would eliminate your argument.

The difference would be proven to exist with some able to hear it and others not depending on the individual hearing capabilities.

I'm with Beej.
 
Off the cuff I would start out very simple and go from there. I want to know the relative difference in the wood species so I would first do the following very simple test as a start.

1) Take a piece of plywood, X x Y inches
2) Run a screw through each corner so the points come through.
3) Have a sample of each wood also X x Y inches
4) Place each piece on the sample on the screw points (for minimal contact/impact of the mounting surface)
5) Strike a tuning fork and place it on different areas of the sample.

This is simple and MAY give me the initial RELATIVE qualities.

I've seen violin makers employ tuning forks when voicing an instrument.

Ok everyone - flame away.
 
Thought we might want to review the OP before this thread totally derails into the on-going "does wood matter" debate.
So I post this out of sheer curiosity, and the desire to know just how much woods actually have to do with the tone of a solid body bass. let me start off by saying, I am not asking for opinion, I asking for help in how to test it. But I digress, every forum post on this topic I have ever read has ended in some variant of a "flame war", with both sides interjecting some opinionated factually inadequate statement.
Bold for emphasis of the point. The last sentence in the post does appear to be what is happening to this thread.

I also read a lot of posts saying how there has been no scientific test to back the tone wood hypothesis up.
I believe this is true. If anyone knows of existing scientific tests to the contrary, that could be interesting.

This brings me to the point of this post- I feel it would be interesting to approach the debate using a less bias viewpoint. It would be amazing to create an experiment to test how much woods have to do with tone. So, lets begin...

Using a logical approach, it seems it would be possible to construct an experiment to test the variables of the problem.
Emphasis added in case anyone missed the point.

There are people posting on here who feel that wood either does not matter or matters very little; so, pursuing the experiment is a waste of time. Or, they may think some other factor, such as "psychoacoustics" is more important. The post is asking how one would get relevant data that could be subsequently discussed. Can't have the discussion with no data other than speculating and practicing High School Popularity Contest Rules (a most popular form of "logic" on TB, it seems;)). Last I checked, you have to get data before you can even begin to discuss it, much less consider whether or not it is applicable to a given hypothesis.

Anyhow, here is the OP hypothesis
As per the rather generic scientific method, I've just asked the question.

Hypothesis:

Based on many years of playing bass, I suspect that woods would have an affect on the tone of the instrument. I suspect that the differing densities of woods would be the primary culprit. Having stated this, I understand that there are a lot of factors that make a bass, a bass- I.E. strings, scale, pickup placement, electronics, ecc. I find that even playing identical models of instruments produce obvious tonal variants. Granted that the aspect of strings, and pickup hight can also play a role in the tonal differences. But I feel it isn't quite all left to that. It seems that the nuances in the densities of the wood could be part of the cause for these differences in tone. Also, don't take my word thus far as anything completely factual. So far I have stated my opinion. But this is my hypothesis after all, and that is what a hypothesis is: an educated guess.
So, there is the "Wood (does not)Affects Tone" hypothesis; and it is a bit more specific in terms of density being a primary variable. We can have the argument about that one for years on end; but, until someone disproves it, it remains a valid hypothesis.

Here is the proposed experimental description:
Experimentation:

Now this is to be one of the hardest stages: testing my hypothesis. Im not entirely sure how I may go about testing it... But this is why I've posted this thread, after all. There must be several factors in this experiment. The first being consistency. This includes the ability for this experiment to be retested, and the ability to attain a controllable testing method that minimizes error. I will test how sound, (the vibrations) of the strings affects the wood, and how it changes how the string is vibrating. Secondly, the testing of different materials with the same specifications. I will have several different woods, metals, and even some others as test fodder. There will be one bass pickup with identical bridge, string, tuner, and electronic connections. The pickup will be identical heights, and the placement will be identical on the whole of the set up. (see included diagram below). But this is the tedious part: I do not want to just use my ear, as this is completely subjective and hardly accurate. There must be a way to accurately rate what is happening. IE an electronic ear that can measure the differences in the materials.
There is a bit of language issue here, but I believe it is pretty clear what the OP wants to measure and the type of measurement they want to use.

And finally:
Yes I understand that this may be a bit ambitious, however I feel it could be feasible to accomplish. Secondly, this I hope will not turn into a flame war, that is not the goal of this post. Also, To who ever might say why knowing this matters, I say: The goal is to learn, and when seeking light on a subject that hasn't reached any type of conclusion, I see it as "worth it".

Lastly, Im not sure how to proceed experimenting, help is something I need...

How would you guys go about testing this idea?
To summarize: the OP requested comments related to how to measure acoustic signal propagation and resonance in woods and the interaction of that resonance with the strings using a "non-human ear."

Other interesting questions, such as the relevance of physical measurements of wood properties to human perception, merit their own consideration, but do not contribute to this particular OP question.

Please feel free to criticize my reading of the OP; but, that's how I read it.
 
Oh dear, now that this has moved to the Basses subforum, I'm out. As a scientist, I have no desire to continually re-establish and re-explain experimental procedure to a forum of this volume and lack of attentiveness to detail. :)

No offense, but now that this is here, its back to opinionated speculation and introduction of extraneous variables and controls ad nauseum as all of these threads eventually end up.

Enjoy! :D
Without knowing the people and backgrounds involved in this thread, don't you think that is a somewhat presumptive set of statements?:eyebrow:
 
So, if that was not enough, I will just add the following comments gleaned from a career spent in Materials R&D:

Regarding utility of the proposed experimental testing:
99 times out of 100, we reduce technology to practice through art, and the science comes along later and explains why the art practitioners got the result they got. In other words, Mike Tobias spends 20 years before he finally gets to where he is more reproducibly making what he wants based on empirical observations. Science still later delivers its understanding of what he did, rather than helping him with predictions about what he should have done ahead of time.

Science understanding tends to move slowly and be expensive. There are at least a handful of PhD dissertations that could be conducted, if someone was willing to pay for it, to address all the issues bouncing around in this thread. So, we are not likely to "solve the problem" in this thread.

That is also why there are so many viewpoints being expressed. There were three blind men and an elephant....:D

Peace to all my fellow bass players.
 
Without knowing the people and backgrounds involved in this thread, don't you think that is a somewhat presumptive set of statements?

And so accurate! Not speaking for Beej, but (since he's gone?) ...

I don't think it needs to be taken personally by anyone, but if you look at any discussion of this matter or similar in this forum, it's easy to see how futile discussions like this are, here. A few people who are never going to give it a rest, a lot who aren't going to read the whole thread, too many who aren't very careful thinkers ... the discussion starts going in circles after a few pages.
 
Lets face it, wood body and wood neck species and construction methods are nothing more than an organic passive filter. They combine to limit or dampen specific frequencies that the strings produce. The pickups and electronics are only capable of detecting and amplifying or cutting the frequencies to which they are exposed.

Mongo2 proposes a very scientific first step in determining if wood choice impacts tone. The measuring devices will clearly confirm if there is a difference.

If not, the discussion is over and tone wood becomes a confirmed myth.

If there is a measurable difference then the discussion can continue to refine the specific impact of the different variables (body wood, neck wood, fingerboard wood, neck construction method, and neck type) all using he same scientific measuring methods.

The things that will continually be exceptionally challenging to test to the satisfaction of either camp will be:
"can a listener hear the difference" - good luck getting consensus on what a listener is - is it someone with exceptional hearing or is it a teenager with acute high pitch hearing or is it a middle age rocker with hearing damage or someone that can't pick a bass line out of a typical song or is it a seasoned bass player or just random people off the street or what?

"Can the "listener" hear the difference in a mix - if you somehow ever managed to get consensus on what a "listener" is good luck getting consensus on what a "mix" is - is it a soft jazz trio, a classic rock band in a crowded bar, a heavy metal band in a stadium, a simple instrumental rock song mp3 recording and uploaded to the forum where it's being played back thru $25 radio shack computer speakers or what?

Then even if you managed to get some consensus on all of that above I'm sure the goal posts would be further moved with the comment of "yeah, sure you can hear a difference but you can't tell me if the bass being played is maple or ash or basswood, etc" there for the difference isn't important.

And on and on...

Just stick with Mongo2's suggestion of confirming there is a difference, beyond that if you can or can't hear it its because of a limitless number of reasons.
 
Then they cannot tell the difference. Others may easily be able to tell the difference.

The biggest variable by far is the ability of the listener to detect a difference. The use of an analyzer will show that there is a difference so that will be settled and then it's down to individuals hearing capability.

I have never seen a post on TB suggesting that there is NO difference, even down to the sensitivity of a scope. Dan Atkinson and many others (including me) simply believe that any difference is too small to be reliably heard. Obviously changing the wood will produce some change on a scope. However, that 's like saying a human can tell the difference in room temperature down to .1 degrees just because a thermometer can be that accurate. If the OP wants to prove a scope can differentiate, that's cool, but it's a very different question than "can a human listener tell the difference between ash and alder?", or even 2 different pieces of the same wood.

Anyway, this thread is like the Encyclopedia of Diseases of the Skin. It hurts my eyes but I haven't been able to look away....but I better now......