"Wood and tone" experiment

[Beej]

For the lay bass player, the evidence is as you have stated: an experienced player can tell the difference in sound between two instruments having the same components (pups, pots, circuitry etc) but different woods.

Based on my own experiences as researcher in psychology, I would put money down that a double blinded randomized controlled trial would show that they could not. That said, if it showed that they could, I would forever be an advocate.

If you wanted to see data describing this, you would need to invest 7k$ to 10k$ in an instrument called a spectrum analyzer. There may be less expensive alternatives now for the PC using various A/D converters; but, I am not current with those. I have not seen any such spectrum analysis for stringed instruments; but, it could be out there.

Spectral analysis could be moot if we are looking at evaluation of a person's perceptual capacity to determine differences. There is no point in determining that a machine can tell the difference, when what we want to know is "can a human tell the difference?"

 

[Beej]

This kind of project is great to talk about but would require several disciplines to achieve. I would guess you would need:

1) Mechanical and/or electrical engineers to design and build the plucking machine. Maybe even a computer software programmer type to ensure the computer code for "Paul the plucker" was the same each and every time. If you went with a computer controlled machine that is..

Actually a device to pluck the strings with equal force would be quite easy to rig up. You'd literally just need a stick with a pick taped to the end attached to a pendulum that when released (preferably by electromagnet), drops the stick using gravity to drag the pick across the strings. As long as there is no capacity for observer/tester interference, it would meet the standard and would be replicable.

2) Noise or sound analysts of some type to ensure the sound measurement and equipment needed is correct.

This would be moot if the hypothesis is to test the ability of a person to tell the difference.

3) Bass or stringed instrument musicians to help the others in the wood selection, pup setup, string selection, etc.

We have that in droves here in the LC. We could just go with Ash, Alder, Basswood and Mahogany for example.

This is no small task in any way. Doable for sure but not small. It would be a great project for a college engineering department to undertake if they could partner up with a few bass, string and pup manufacturers.

This is actually a simple 3rd year undergrad level study with a simple research design. It might be mildly costly and time consuming, but it's a simple experiment.

All of this is said with respect - I do not relish a flame war either...

 

[JIO]

This thread is making my head hurt.

hee-hee-hee I'm thinking I could start a thread to determine why certain tb threads make ones head hurt.

 

[NAVET]

We have that in droves here in the LC. We could just go with Ash, Alder, Basswood and Mahogany for example.

But we can't leave out Maple in it's multiple forms, Koa, Ebony, Rosewood, etc or somebody will get mad.

This would be moot if the hypothesis is to test the ability of a person to tell the difference.

I think to make it interesting we would want to know both. Does wood variety make a difference AND can an average person hear the difference?

I still think it would be an excellent study. I also think regardless of the results somebody will deny the results and disagree.

 

[Beej]

I also think regardless of the results somebody will deny the results and disagree.

On talkbass? Surely you jest...

 

[Duplo42]

While thinking bout this thread, went to look for some other reseaching, found this on youtube: Making Guitars with a Physics Mind by Dominic Howman
Awesome stuff, an hour long lecture, quite a must IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMc8Yk58hIg

It would be interesting to see how much of energy from strings on bass goes (or gets lost) into body.

EDIT: the video is really great - I thought I knew basics at least and I learned just so much

 

[kohntarkosz]

I also think regardless of the results somebody will deny the results and disagree.

The usual tonewood trolls and whiners will no doubt show up and contribute nothing to this thread other than "whaaa, you must have the same opinion as me! Waaaa".

Counting down the minutes...

 

[NAVET]

The usual tonewood trolls and whiners will no doubt show up and contribute nothing to this thread other than "whaaa, you must have the same opinion as me! Waaaa".

Preach it brother kohntarkosz!!

 

[kohntarkosz]

Well I'm sorry that your ear is not good enough to tell the difference between wood types, but you have to respect those of us who are lucky enough to hear the difference, and accept that we are undoubtedly right. If not I will post paragraphs of straw-man arguments, pseudo-science, words I learned in college but never quite use in the correct context (think; tautologous, arbitrary, nebulous) and pretzel logic.

 

[bucephylus]

Spectral analysis could be moot if we are looking at evaluation of a person's perceptual capacity to determine differences. There is no point in determining that a machine can tell the difference, when what we want to know is "can a human tell the difference?"

ok. We're back to "if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?" Sorry, but I'm an engineer and possibly take a different view of things.

 

[NAVET]

bucephylus "ok. We're back to "if a tree falls in the woods, does it make a sound?" Sorry, but I'm an engineer and possibly take a different view of things."

But if we can definitively measure the difference, IF there is any, then the argument of "there is / there is not a difference made in tone from wood species used" becomes settled and then the discussion becomes some people hear better/different than others and that is a matter of genetics as well as environmental. Genetics in that some folks are just gifted and environmental in that some folks worked around loud noises longer than they should have and have had their hearing destroyed in some measure.

Or am I missing something?

 

[bucephylus]

But if we can definitively measure the difference, IF there is any, then the argument of "there is / there is not a difference made in tone from wood species used" becomes settled and then the discussion becomes some people hear better/different than others and that is a matter of genetics as well as environmental. Genetics in that some folks are just gifted and environmental in that some folks worked around loud noises longer than they should have and have had their hearing destroyed in some measure.

Or am I missing something?

No, you are not missing anything. That was exactly my point.

 

[pilotjones]

They must be set identically, as closely measured as possible. If screws or bolts are used, they must be applied with a torque wrench.

Torque is a normally-taken but poor substitute for actual clamping force. Even tightened to the same torque, you will get different clamping forces when putting wood screws into different density and friction woods. Pilot hole sizes would also have a large effect.

To eliminate this variable, you might

- use a normal bridge, but use clearance thru-holes through the body, and use machine bolts and washers and nuts, tightened to a controlled torque

- eliminate the complications with a normal bridge by doing a more "pure simple" bridge that is held only by a controlled string downforce. Such as:

- 3/8" wide by 1/8" deep transverse groove routed into the body
- 3/8" square brass bar, with the top filed/machined to give two angled surfaces in a tent shape and thus a defined witness point, laid into the groove
- string-thru hole put into the body a controlled distance behind the bridge bar, producing a controlled break angle and downforce​

 

[Tom Howland]

Cool tread.

You can debate the wood thing forever.
After 30 years of playing. and being a wood nut.
I've come to this conclusion. Type of woods used will effect tone.
It's all subjective. If you build 10 basses that are the same style, same pickup, same strings. But with different wood combo's they will all sound different.
The bigger mystery is build three basses that are exactly the same. and these three basses to some degree will sound different.
Wood weight, density, pitch, age with all be a factor.
I believe there is a certain Juju or mojo, that can't be explained. Some basses just sound better.
Is it luck ?

 

[mongo2]

But if we can definitively measure the difference, IF there is any, then the argument of "there is / there is not a difference made in tone from wood species used" becomes settled and then the discussion becomes some people hear better/different than others and that is a matter of genetics as well as environmental. Genetics in that some folks are just gifted and environmental in that some folks worked around loud noises longer than they should have and have had their hearing destroyed in some measure.

Exactly.

 

[Iridescentone]

Not to sound too harsh, but this is a total fool's errand. No one is ever going to put together a large enough test sample to prove or disprove anything. Not ever.

The best you can do is listen to what builders like M. Tobias have to say about it. They've worked on this stuff for decades. Decades. If that's not good enough, just accept that you may never understand, and move on.

 

[PJRL]

I think in the practical world it is like this. The people listening to you are hearing you and your playing. You the player are trying to get your sound out of the instrument / wood you are playing. What I have noticed in my guitars and basses is, they never sound the same even if they are seemingly exactly the same. I will play each one of them and hear there sound characteristics, then tweek things to try to get what I am after. Sometimes I will get a sound / tone I like and sometimes I won't. This explanes why some instruments are keepers and some aren't.

I bet I'm not the only one.....

 

[el murdoque]

build at least four basses with identical measurements.
built two times two basses with identical wood.
For the testing, use one pickup with one set of electronics, i'd say, for the testing purposes, some top mounted device. this pickup will be used in all four basses, so the
differences between pickups, even same models is ruled out.
the one set of basses made of identical wood should yield similar results,
different of the other sets (similar) result, thus the thesis will be proofed.

 

[M.R. Ogle]

Off target.

If we were talking about ANY other material than wood, say different densities of structural foam or composites, I don't think ANYONE would think for one small second that the changes in that structural material wouldn't produce a difference in frequency response.

Because it's wood, it is inconsistent, and so you would need a HUGE sample to get anything resembling a trend. Does anyone think the maple in a Squier Affinity neck is the same as the maple in an Alleva-Coppolo neck?

I'm sorry, I just don't see the point. Who's mind are you going to change, either way? Nobody's.

 

[fuzzychaos]

I'm sorry, I just don't see the point. Who's mind are you going to change, either way? Nobody's.

It doesn't need to change anyone's mind, but doing the experiment just for the sake of science is worthwhile in, and, of itself.