Double Bass Woods Ultra And EA Whizzy 12 M line?

[gnergaard]

Does anybody currently use, have experience with or just have an opinion on the combination of a Walter Woods Ultra and a Euphonic Audio Whizzy M'line 12" cab?
I have the Woods. Love it.
Thinking about using a Whizzy M-line. Currrently using a Bergantino HT112 (with a slight driver modification). I a/b'ed them at home this evening and my experience was kind of confounding.
The 8ohm Berg cab was MUCH louder than the 4ohm M-line. Weird. But I really liked the clarity in the upper mids on the M-line. Made the Bergantino sound 'boxy' in comparison.
Should I be worried about over powering the Whizzy M-line with the 'Woods rated 1200 watt output at 4ohms? Or can the Whizzy driver take it?
Gear Profile:
American Standard URB w/ realist
Lakland 5 ers
Old Jazz bass.
I like it loud sometimes and try to use small cabs to cover doubling gigs that frequently start at a 'jazz' volume and then move to 'LOUD jazz' by the 2nd or 3rd set. Lately the Berg HT seems to loose clarity when pushed- even with a high pass filter engaged in the signal chain on the upright.
Thoughts?
Thanks!

 

[robgrow]

I also have a Walter Woods amp and a Wizzy M, and I like the combination very much. I have used this setup doubling with an R&B band several times, and it works great and gives me all the volume I need without getting mushy.

Your comment about the HT-112 being louder than the Wizzy M is puzzling. It sounds like something isn't right, since the Wizzy is one of the most sensitive speakers on the market with a rating of 103 dB SPL with 1 watt @ 1 meter vs. the HT-112's sensitivity rating of 97 dB SPL with 1 W @ 1 M. A 6 dB difference in sensitivity should be quite noticeable. A friend and I compared his HT-112 to the Wizzy M and the Wizzy was indeed noticeably louder.

Speakers are rated for so many watts of continuous power. Music has peaks many times the average power level. What you don't want is amplifier clipping, which can destroy a speaker very quickly. The Ultra should give you plenty of headroom. If you don't drive your speaker(s) to the point that they are noticeably breaking up, you should be OK. If you hear distortion, back off. If you are really playing loud, you will just have to go with a second cab. One 12-inch speaker can only do so much.

 

[gnergaard]

Your comment about the HT-112 being louder than the Wizzy M is puzzling. It sounds like something isn't right, since the Wizzy is one of the most sensitive speakers on the market with a rating of 103 dB SPL with 1 watt @ 1 meter vs. the HT-112's sensitivity rating of 97 dB SPL with 1 W @ 1 M. A 6 dB difference in sensitivity should be quite noticeable. A friend and I compared his HT-112 to the Wizzy M and the Wizzy was indeed noticeably louder.

I was very suprised myself. In all fairness to Bergantino, I should say that my HT 112 currently has an Aguilar 12" in it. I have no good reason for having done this except to say that I thought it sounded better than the original Berg driver with my rig, but this is definitely the source of the "boxy" ness of the cab. Then again, I would guess that ANYthing would sound boxy next to a cab using an M-line design. The lows really spead out in every diection! The aguilar driver I use has more low mids than the Berg, to be certain, and this is at the cost of clear upper midrange content. The original Aguilar 112 cab the driver came from was specified at 101db/1watt sensitivity compared to the 97db/1watt rating of the Berg driver, but that still doesn't explain the diffrence entirely. I'll just have to trust my ears.
Does the M-line Whizzy sound "raspy" compared to the Berg HT112? I mean that in a good way, like "pronounced upper mids"...is this the signature sound of the whizzer cone speaker?

"One 12-inch speaker can only do so much."

Yes, but I am far too lazy to carry two cabs sometimes. And that's exactly what Jim Bergantino told me when I asked him about a 4ohm driver for the HT 112. I guess I wan't my cake and to eat it, too. And a slice of pie. And for the cab to "make me a sandwich" in between sets.
So should I try a shroeder 12"? everyone says that the are loud as all get out...
Thanks for the reply. I knew that someone must be using this combo.

 

[bolo]

Does the M-line Whizzy sound "raspy" compared to the Berg HT112? I mean that in a good way, like "pronounced upper mids"...is this the signature sound of the whizzer cone speaker?

I haven't heard an M-line A/B'ed with a Berg, but I sense a certain raspy quality if you will as I move around in front of the M-line cab at various angles to its axis. There's a slice or a zone out of in front of the cab on each side where this quality is noticeable to me. I like the overall dispersion of the cab, and the on-axis sound a lot. And straight out front of the cab, that bite seems to blend with the lows and fit in well with the overall sound so it's not as noticeable per se.

I don't know if other designs beside the Wizzer have this "hot spot" off-axis if you will, or even if it's just me that senses it this way.

 

[bribass]

as I move around in front of the M-line cab at various angles to its axis. There's a slice or a zone out of in front of the cab on each side where this quality is noticeable to me. I like the overall dispersion of the cab, and the on-axis sound a lot. And straight out front of the cab, that bite seems to blend with the lows and fit in well with the overall sound so it's not as noticeable per se.

I agree.
I deffinately notice more mid presence 2-3 feet out in front of the M-line.
On another axis, standing just off to the side of the cab (as I often do while performing), there seems to be more presence of the lows than compared to right in front. I believe this is due to the side ports of the Transmission Line. As you move out to 7-10 feet out in front the hi's, mids & lows blend well and are beautifully dispersed. I think that's part of the mojo of this cab.

In many rooms when EQing I often have to keep in mind that what sounds bottom heavy when standing off to the side of the cab may actually be perfect out front.

BG

 

[Blake Bass]

I use that exact rig in my practice room and I also take it out for medium to low level jazz gigs (electric bass). I've yet to use it on a louder R&B, funk, rock type gig because I'm afraid of overdriving the speaker at higher volume levels. I use a TF-500 B with a Epifani 3x10 for the louder gigs. I don't think the WW/Wizzy M combo can compete with the TF/Epi combo for high volume gigs.

 

[bolo]

Does the M-line Whizzy sound "raspy" compared to the Berg HT112? I mean that in a good way, like "pronounced upper mids"...is this the signature sound of the whizzer cone speaker?

There is a line on Bob G's site that has been there for some time:

"... nice presence bump at 1KHz which conforms to the Euphonic Audio house curve."​

So I wonder if this is part of what you're hearing? And if it applies to all EA cabs, not just the ones w/ the Wizzer cones? I think using piezo pickups could actually exacerbate this sound trait too. I dunno. I've always felt like maybe it does sound spitty in the practice room in a way, but it sure does cut and speak well on a gig.

All FWIW, I could be wrong, YMMV.

 

[bolo]

I agree.
I deffinately notice more mid presence 2-3 feet out in front of the M-line.
On another axis, standing just off to the side of the cab (as I often do while performing), there seems to be more presence of the lows than compared to right in front. I believe this is due to the side ports of the Transmission Line. As you move out to 7-10 feet out in front the hi's, mids & lows blend well and are beautifully dispersed. I think that's part of the mojo of this cab.

In many rooms when EQing I often have to keep in mind that what sounds bottom heavy when standing off to the side of the cab may actually be perfect out front.

BG

Well thanks for agreeing with me. I think the second thing you observed though may actually be somewhat true for just about any speaker cab.

I am no techie, and I could be wrong, but I think I've learned here (and thru experience) that standing off to the side of speakers or even behind them, you just won't hear as many mids and highs since they are more directional and tend to stay more out front where you put them, in a tighter set of beams (or spheres).

Like you said, I like that spot 5-8 feet out in front of my cab for DB. Same w/ the Laklands. Smooth and full. Accurate and "present", but not what I would call raspy.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I use that exact rig in my practice room and I also take it out for medium to low level jazz gigs (electric bass). I've yet to use it on a louder R&B, funk, rock type gig because I'm afraid of overdriving the speaker at higher volume levels. I use a TF-500 B with a Epifani 3x10 for the louder gigs. I don't think the WW/Wizzy M combo can compete with the TF/Epi combo for high volume gigs.

How do you like the WW with the Epifani 3x10?

 

[gnergaard]

I can actually field that. I also have an Epifani Ul310 and truth be told I don't like it with the 'woods. it ain't bad but the woods just doen't seem to have enough power to do it justice. However I would still say that the UL310 with just about any other amp is fantastic and it is my go-to rig for loud, out door or large venues when I use a separate pre and power amp set up- rated at about the same in terms of output watts . Both electric and upright sound great through a UL310.
Who knows? Maybe the 'woods just doesn't like the 5.3 ohm rating for some reason. I've always wanted to try the 'woods with a Epifani UL210 4ohm cab just to see/hear the difference.

 

[gnergaard]

Thanks, everybody.
The description of the 1K bump in the mid-field as opposed to off axis sounds like what I was hearing.
Any more opinions about whether or not I am doomed to blow this cab up with 1200watts of power from the Woods Ultra?

 

[Uncletoad]

Any more opinions about whether or not I am doomed to blow this cab up with 1200watts of power from the Woods Ultra?

Power rarely blows up speakers. Distortion does. Signals that are below 30hz do. You should be fine at any volume that is usable on the gig without feeding back or distorting assuming you employ some sort of high pass filter.

The Woods doesn't like 310 cabs. I had a Euphonic Audio CL310. Sucked ass with the Woods. VL210 was twice as loud and clean in comparison where with other amps the CL310 beat the pants off the 210. It must not like weird loads. I don't think the Focus liked it all that much either. I think a 310 is like a 3 tit girl. Seems like a cool thing that ends up not as useful as you want it to be.

I have never been successful at playing really loud with the realist regardless of bass or amp or speakers. I don't think it likes it as well as the Full Circle or an Underwood or a Wilson. At more pedestrian volumes the Realist is very nice.

 

[KJung]

Power rarely blows up speakers. Distortion does. Signals that are below 30hz do. You should be fine at any volume that is usable on the gig without feeding back or distorting assuming you employ some sort of high pass filter.

The Woods doesn't like 310 cabs. I had a Euphonic Audio CL310. Sucked ass with the Woods. VL210 was twice as loud and clean in comparison where with other amps the CL310 beat the pants off the 210. It must not like weird loads. I don't think the Focus liked it all that much either. I think a 310 is like a 3 tit girl. Seems like a cool thing that ends up not as useful as you want it to be.

I have never been successful at playing really loud with the realist regardless of bass or amp or speakers. I don't think it likes it as well as the Full Circle or an Underwood or a Wilson. At more pedestrian volumes the Realist is very nice.

I think your 310 hypothesis is kind of a spurious relationship. I found my Walter Woods to equally dislike any of the EpiUL's, especially the original Series I. Since most other amps sounded great, I attribute this to a problem in the Walter Woods voicing and design, not the cabs. The deep low end extension, and slight upper mid bump of the original UL's sat right in the wrong placed for the Walter. Actually, the 210UL was my all time least favorite cab with the Walter.

Also, there is no such thing as a 'weird load' with a solid state amp, as far as I know.

Finally, the EA310 was voiced quite differently than the old VL210, so again, I think it's the voicing of the cabs, not the 'extra 10' or 5.3 impedance. IMO and IME

 

[Uncletoad]

I think your 310 hypothesis is kind of a spurious relationship. I found my Walter Woods to equally dislike any of the EpiUL's, especially the original Series I. Since most other amps sounded great, I attribute this to a problem in the Walter Woods voicing and design, not the cabs. The deep low end extension, and slight upper mid bump of the original UL's sat right in the wrong placed for the Walter. Actually, the 210UL was my all time least favorite cab with the Walter.

Also, there is no such thing as a 'weird load' with a solid state amp, as far as I know.

Finally, the EA310 was voiced quite differently than the old VL210, so again, I think it's the voicing of the cabs, not the 'extra 10' or 5.3 impedance. IMO and IME

That sounds right. I always scratched my head with that box. Never could get it to sound right with anything but a Crown MT1200 and a TC Electronics preamp.

 

[bribass]

I think a 310 is like a 3 tit girl. Seems like a cool thing that ends up not as useful as you want it to be.

Classic Phil! Lol!

The M-lines takes the 800 -1000 watts of my Focus just fine. I have two, but I'm constantly amazed on the variety of rooms, even very large ones, that I'm
able to play w/ just one. I've never heard it break up or distort even on loud doubling gigs w/large bands. I was on a gig last week in a very large room w/ hundreds of people there. There was a sound man who said he was gonna take a signal from the DI of my Focus. The bass seemed to be cutting thru and fillng the room really nicely despite the loud drummer. Here's the thing; the gig was nearly over before I realized that he'd never plugged that line into my DI. I had been playing the whole gig W/O FOTH help and I didn't even know notice the difference. Neither did anyone else. One Wizzy M-line cut the room by itself!

FWIW the Realist does fine in loud situations on both my German and Prescott basses w/ my old W Woods/M-line or Focus/M-line pairings.
I've never tried a Full Circle to compare it w, however.

Just my .2 from my experience, but then again I've never even seen a 3 tit girl .

 

[gnergaard]

That sounds right. I always scratched my head with that box. Never could get it to sound right with anything but a Crown MT1200 and a TC Electronics preamp.

I bet that sounded good.
Not sure about the theory of the series I epi drivers and the Woods not getting along. I've heard people get a great sound out of the UL112...