working with an inexperienced drummer

[jojo297]

Hi. Just looking for thoughts on how to deal with a drummer who doesn't know how to lock in, or even listen to the bass lines. I've been playing since the 70's, as a serious "semi-pro" while always juggling a day job. After a two-year break, I decided to have some fun and joined an all-girl rock band last year - two guitars, drums, me on bass, all four vocals. Cool idea, given there are not any similar bands in our area. Three of us have been playing and gigging for decades, but the drummer is the best friend of the lead singer and has just begun learning the drums 4 yrs ago. She likes to sing, so her drumming takes a back seat and is always noticible to me. I constantly tell her to listen to me and lock onto my bass lines. She's open to the suggestions from me and the other guitarist who tells her not to sacrifice the drums during her vocals, but just doesn't get it. I'm always working harder in every single song because I realize I need to keep the tempo solid and add percussive tones to keep the song exciting. When she sings, the tempo can subtly be all over the place. Frustrating to me.
These gals are great people, but since the drummer is good friends with the lead singer I don't want to stir up trouble... after all, this is just for fun locally and a few surrounding cities. I'm looking for suggestions on how to deal with this situation...?? Yes it's for fun, but I do have somewhat of a reputation in the area that I'd like to keep. As you all can feel, this COVID issue has put a huge damper on shopping around for new bandmates, or I'd just start another band of my own. Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[Guild B301]

I’ve been playing drums professionally, probably as long as you’ve been a bassist. RECORD the songs you are talking about. Record the songs and discuss everyone in the band’s performances. Don’t just single her out. But, show her how she is screwing up. If she doesn’t immediately start working on improving her playing, you’ll realize she isn’t serious.

 

[LBS-bass]

I have learned with musicians that are not very experienced and not rhythmically competent, you really can't expect them to progress very far in a short period of time. She's likely not going to become noticeably better until she has a lot more time under her belt, which is time during which you'll have to decide whether you want to deal with someone who is learning or not.

I don't have a magic bullet, it's just a matter of whether you have the patience for this. You can try to give her suggestions, but she still needs to hardwire those things in through practice.

In my personal life I have had to work with a drummer who is far less experienced than I am. I married him. We agreed some time ago that working together just doesn't work for us because I am always wanting to give him "pointers," which he takes as insults.

We've been married for 13 years, and over the past year I've heard him move from hesitant and non-confident toward something more proficient and rhythmically solid. He is listening to the music surrounding him and responding more naturally to the pocket. It took this long to get there. Persistence has paid off for him, but I didn't have to deal with being in a band with him through all that time.

Learning takes time, there's really no way around it.

 

[jojo297]

I’ve been playing drums professionally, probably as long as you’ve been a bassist. RECORD the songs you are talking about. Record the songs and discuss everyone in the band’s performances. Don’t just single her out. But, show her how she is screwing up. If she doesn’t immediately start working on improving her playing, you’ll realize she isn’t serious.

Good suggestion to make it about the whole band's performance. Thanks.

 

[jojo297]

I have learned with musicians that are not very experienced and not rhythmically competent, you really can't expect them to progress very far in a short period of time. She's likely not going to become noticeably better until she has a lot more time under her belt, which is time during which you'll have to decide whether you want to deal with someone who is learning or not.

I don't have a magic bullet, it's just a matter of whether you have the patience for this. You can try to give her suggestions, but she still needs to hardwire those things in through practice.

In my personal life I have had to work with a drummer who is far less experienced than I am. I married him. We agreed some time ago that working together just doesn't work for us because I am always wanting to give him "pointers," which he takes as insults.

We've been married for 13 years, and over the past year I've heard him move from hesitant and non-confident toward something more proficient and rhythmically solid. He is listening to the music surrounding him and responding more naturally to the pocket. It took this long to get there. Persistence has paid off for him, but I didn't have to deal with being in a band with him through all that time.

Learning takes time, there's really no way around it.

Yes... patience. Right now I like the fact that it's a laid back group and I have people to play music with in person, during these crazy times. At last night's gig, I had to mentally disconnect from the drums in order to do the more intricate bass lines and solos. I'll see if she's put some time into improving over the next couple of months while there are no gigs on the calendar. Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[jamro217]

The complexity of the music may be too much for her to concentrate on while singing. If three part harmonies are acceptable, suggest that at the next meeting. If you're playing steady, repetitive music then maybe she isn't quite ready for the road yet.

 

[bwildt]

Re: recording rehearsals. You also might be surprised in a good way. Our drummer of 10 years passed away last year, and we brought in a new drummer. He is as good as the previous drummer, but different, and I was very tuned in to the previous drummer.

At rehearsals with the new guy, sometimes it seemed to me that we were not always locked in as as much as I thought we should be. I had begun recording rehearsals.

When listening to the recordings, all the places where I thought we didn't jive, sounded quite good. Especially if you are listening from the vantage point of an audience rather than a musician.

Granted, an inexperienced dummer may have problems and make you as a bassist cringe, but make sure you listen to the performance as a whole. Take a listen first, then try to clean up just the glaring issues.

 

[fishdude101101]

Good suggestion to make it about the whole band's performance. Thanks.

Agree. We all have things we can do better. Nobody likes to be singled out.

 

[fishdude101101]

Re: recording rehearsals. You also might be surprised in a good way. Our drummer of 10 years passed away last year, and we brought in a new drummer. He is as good as the previous drummer, but different, and I was very tuned in to the previous drummer.

At rehearsals with the new guy, sometimes it seemed to me that we were not always locked in as as much as I thought we should be. I had begun recording rehearsals.

When listening to the recordings, all the places where I thought we didn't jive, sounded quite good. Especially if you are listening from the vantage point of an audience rather than a musician.

Granted, an inexperienced dummer may have problems and make you as a bassist cringe, but make sure you listen to the performance as a whole. Take a listen first, then try to clean up just the glaring issues.

Another question I've asked my self, is will the audience notice in the context of a live performance? If not I think it worth working with this drummer if there will be improvement over time.

Having said that I've been in situations that just didn't work out for one reason or another and sometimes you do have to part ways.

 

[Leonid Nidis]

I have been in the same situation.Not much you can do.
Record the rehersal and go through the weak parts.
Simplify the drum roles where you can.

In the end it didnt work for me.The lack of skill came out live under pressure and even worse recording.
Anyway,I just love fancy drummers who can play complex\creative and keep it together at the same time but it takes a lot of work to be a good drummer.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

Put her up front as a singer. Then find a drummer who can play.

 

[Tosh]

If you have a couple of Benjamins to spare, consider getting some Soundbrenner haptic metronomes. Have the drummer wear hers around her right (or left) ankle. It can be very helpful in keeping a drummer on the downbeat.

 

[arbiterusa]

Hi. Just looking for thoughts on how to deal with a drummer who doesn't know how to lock in, or even listen to the bass lines.

Life's too short. This is one of the few musical things I won't even consider doing. I'll just go find a drummer that CAN lock in, that has steady time, and listens to the bassist.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Do you have religious objections to programming a portion of the percussion work? Ableton is a bit of a rabbit hole you might not want to go down at this stage of your life, but it can get you guys up and running, and it may make sense in terms of playing to her strengths as a performer. She can focus on primarily being a vocalist who plays simplified acoustic drum parts for texture. It's a legit artistic decision - heck, Genesis did it, and they had Phil Collins.

 

[Reedt2000]

Be supportive and choose your words carefully. I like the "make it about the band as a whole" approach, but you risk injuring her "face", something that will make future communications very difficult, if not impossible, and could blow up the whole thing for you.

If her timing is solid, but her connection to your playing is being overlooked, your best bet as the more experienced player might be to play to her (again, with the big picture in mind).

If timing is not consistent you've got a big hill to climb and as others point out immediate and drastic change is unlikely.

 

[LBS-bass]

Put her up front as a singer. Then find a drummer who can play.

If she's interested in this. The stereotype of diva female singer is one reason I play instruments. I would never try to discourage a new learner from becoming more proficient as an instrumentalist.

 

[gln1955]

If you have a couple of Benjamins to spare, consider getting some Soundbrenner haptic metronomes. Have the drummer wear hers around her right (or left) ankle. It can be very helpful in keeping a drummer on the downbeat.

The drummer in my last band had an iPad app that monitored his tempo through the whole song. It was a wake up call for all of us how much variation there was. She may see what happens to her timing when she starts to sing. Anyway, good luck and try not to get too frustrated in your fun band.

 

[dave64o]

Not an easy situation and one I'm sensitive to as well - but from the other side. I'm 56 but just started playing out a few years ago in a couple of basement jams and then finally joined a gigging band last summer. Every one of the people I've played with has decades more experience than me and two have been playing longer than I've been alive. It can be intimidating, but it does motivate me to work at it.

Recordings can be a big help. Sometimes I cringe when I hear them, especially considering that I'm the gigging band's primary backing vocalist (two others will add some backing vocals when we need more than one voice but, if there are backing vocals, I'm in on them) and also have my share of lead vocals. Recordings are as objective an assessment as you can have - and they can sometimes surprise you and alter your original impression (for better or worse! ).

My band knows that I'm relatively new at this and is really supportive, but our LS/BL doesn't hesitate to offer suggestions to me, especially with vocals. But the entire band does a good job focusing on how we sound as a whole and offers suggestions in a constructive, rather than complaining or accusing, manner. Maybe I'm lucky that we're all adults and act like it, but I really appreciate that about us. And, just to be clear, I am absolutely NOT saying you or your bandmates are acting childishly. It does sound like the band handles it well. Burt there's no shortage of posts on TB complaining about the immature and childish behavior of band members.

To be honest, I do sometimes simplify my basslines when I have vocals to do. I've told that to our LS/BL and she agreed that it's usually more important to get the vocals rights since more people will notice that than bass (that's possibly equally true for drums?). Then, once I have the vocals down and a solid bass line, I'll keep working at home to get as close as possible to the original bassline. I did say "usually more important" because there are times when there's a signature bassline that needs to be right so I work even harder on those. Are there songs where the drummer may be able to start out playing more simply at first to get the vocals right but continue working on the song to get closer to playing the original drum part?

Is the band also open to putting some songs on the backburner for a while to focus on songs that you're doing well or look for songs that you can do well now? We put quite a few on the backburner when we first started rehearsing last summer and, at least pre-COVID, would regularly decide to re-visit them. We'd occasionally decide to practice one or a few at home for a while and then bring into a rehearsal in a few weeks. We'd play them a couple of times, see if there are remaining issues, then then decide what to do with them. Sometimes we have them down well enough to add to the rotation. And then some get backburnered again and wait to be brought up again later.

I understand being frustrated and feeling held back by someone who's not at your level and see a lot of posts on TB recommending that that person be let go right away. But I also see a lot of posts saying that the best way to improve is to always play with better than you. Those two "truisms" have a tense co-existence. Since the lead singer is good friends with the drummer, maybe talk to the singer to see if she has any suggestions, such as being specific about some things to work on each week (or whatever the right interval is). In other words, simply saying "These 15 songs stink and need to be fixed now" probably won't accomplish anything. But, as a band, come up with some specific things to work on for the next rehearsal, pointing out things that everyone could work on. For the drummer, offer some specific advice on specific songs, do some quick reviews of them while still at the rehearsal (i.e. play through them to point things out, good and bad), maybe suggest some YouTube videos that break down the drum parts for songs you're working on, etc. If the drummer is interested in improving, you'll see it. If not, then you'll see that too. But at least you'll get a good idea of the kind of musician you're dealing with and can make a better decision about what to do next.

Sorry for the long post, but as someone who's much closer to your drummer's situation than yours, I tried to offer things that I've seen in my own situations and also seem to be effective for me personally and for the band as a whole.

 

[Joecooch]

I've always found inexperienced drummers listen to the rest of the band and try to do to much. I would sit down, you two alone and work on the basic rhythms of some of your songs. Play a basic bass line with the correct rhythm of the kick drum and have him or her lock the kick drum on to that and play the songs though, no fills. Then, push him or her to do fills only at the appropriate breaks. I did this with a nephew who was having problems with his kid band. After a couple of sessions with him the light came on and he got it.

 

[kevindahl]

The lead singer and the drummer have to be the best musicians in the band. I say this from a listener's perspective. As a bass player I feel the same way. Others may think differently.

A drummer with bad timing is as bad as it can get. I would rather play with a pitchy singer. Unfortunately it sounds like you want a quick fix and that is just not going to happen. It takes many hours to develop timing and some still dont have feel.

Either quit, get a new drummer or tolerate the chaos you are presently in.

Like others have said life is way too short to be playing with a drummer where all you can say after a jam is, "It's been nice playing against ya."