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Wynton Marsalis: Sage or Idiot?

#21
SteveC said:
There is something to be said for preserving the past. It is important, but not necessarily at the expense of forging ahead as well. Why can't both exist? Our group does both old standards and new stuff.

As for the amp thing...does Wynton play with no sound reinforcement whatsoever? Every venue, every occasion? Does he use a mic when he preaches - I mean speaks - to audiences and workshops?

Sometimes I wonder if he's hurting jazz more than helping.
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Just do a google search for pics of him... you'll find him playing into mics quite easily.
 
#22
there's nothing wrong with having your own vision of being a purist. It's when you think it's the only valid opinionthat you're actually stifling creativity and innovation without even knowing it.

heck, his argument taken literally could mean that any form of sound reproduction is wrong. How the heck are we going to appreciate music if we can't even listen to it unless we go to a small jazz club with no amplification? seriously? meh, I could be wrong
 
#23
Jazz was the result of other music progressing, of musicians trying new things. It was never fixed and immutable. It was an evolution of a sound. Attempting to make immutable any sound and then proclaim it "the pure version" just ignores the institution that is music. No genre has ever been pure, it was always the evolution of another(other) genre(s).

For some music, an electric bass with its electric amp clarity doesn't befit the genre.

And I gotta say that most venues suck when it comes to sonic dynamics. Gone are the days properly designed halls of acoustic mastery. I have railed against churches for years failing to take into account that they would be using a PA, and then hear them complain that the PA doesn't sound right.

But I digress...that is a topic for another rant...
 
#24
I think many of you have no room to talk. You all seem to be just as opinionated as you accuse Wynton Marsalis of being, just in a different way, or ways. If there were only one way, we wouldn't be here. His way works for him. He didn't say YOU couldn't amplify. You guys need to grow up. Remember Scot LaFaro or Doug Watkins. Had they only one vision of bass player's part, the instrument wouldn't have evloved into amplification anyway, as previously the bass was only viewed as a time-keeper. Music is evolutionary, or it is dead, and there are many visions of how it should be played, or how people want to play or interpret it.
 
#26
uglyrumor said:
I think many of you have no room to talk. You all seem to be just as opinionated as you accuse Wynton Marsalis of being, just in a different way, or ways. If there were only one way, we wouldn't be here. His way works for him. He didn't say YOU couldn't amplify. You guys need to grow up. Remember Scot LaFaro or Doug Watkins. Had they only one vision of bass player's part, the instrument wouldn't have evloved into amplification anyway, as previously the bass was only viewed as a time-keeper. Music is evolutionary, or it is dead, and there are many visions of how it should be played, or how people want to play or interpret it.
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I don't follow Marsalis, but I always get the impression that he doesn't respect those who are different from him. I hope I'm wrong because thinking that way is pretty sad.
 
#27
bassCanadabass said:
I think his issue with bass amps is that they are unnatural. When people use bass amps, the band often gets louder, and not for musical reasons. Bass amps generally don't sound as good as acoustic bass. Being a younger player (just entering first year university) I see the issues that the Marsalis talks about all the time. Kids playing really loud, trying to play as many notes as possible. It's unfortunate how regularly I hear things things like "my favorite jazz musician is Slash". If it wasn't for people like Wynton, I'm not sure if straight ahead jazz would be around, or as accessible as it is today (which isn't saying much). At the Toronto jazz fest this year, there isn't one group remotely close to being straight ahead playing in the mainstage concert series.
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is that preferable to it being inaudible....the reality is that in most situations an un-amped db simply will not be heard.....and what does that say about some of the fine electric players out there.....no one is going to convince me that guys like steve swallow,alain caron,pattitucci et al are playing some substandard stuff because they use electric basses...
 
#28
uglyrumor said:
I think many of you have no room to talk. You all seem to be just as opinionated as you accuse Wynton Marsalis of being, just in a different way, or ways. If there were only one way, we wouldn't be here. His way works for him. He didn't say YOU couldn't amplify. You guys need to grow up. Remember Scot LaFaro or Doug Watkins. Had they only one vision of bass player's part, the instrument wouldn't have evloved into amplification anyway, as previously the bass was only viewed as a time-keeper. Music is evolutionary, or it is dead, and there are many visions of how it should be played, or how people want to play or interpret it.
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Funny you should mention Scott LaFaro. According to my friend and long-time Stan Kenton bassist John Worster, Stan fired Scott because he couldn't hear him. Back in that era you raised your action as high as you could, put gut strings on, and beat your hands up to play 4 to the bar Big Band. Scott wasn't wired that way apparently. Of course, put Scott with Bill Evans and Paul Motian and Jazz History was made.
I played the late Dennis Irwin's rental Czech-ease bass a couple of years back at the Franklin Jazz Festival. The good news about guts are that they're pretty easy to play even set very high.
IMO, post-Rock horn sections and rhythm sections don't know how to play acoustically. Everyone plays too loud, not just rhythm players.
 
#29
I agree with Roy!

Most music is too loud now. Even canned music in stores, restaurants, etc is way too loud. Bass players can control the overall volume level of a band quite easily, and often default to a rock-oriented volume. What I don't get is why oh why would someone bring an amp to a small rehearsal room when playing with a quintet, crank it up, and make everyone blow way too hard? (rant over)

on another note:
Wynton is not an idiot, and none of us here plays well enough to back up a comment like that. I don't agree with his viewpoint on everything, but there's no way in a thousand years that I think my opinion has the kind of weight his does.

I lent Ray Brown my amp when I was playing the warmup set for him at Vancouver's Jazz festival years back, and the way he had it set up was quite bright, but not anything like loud. I also heard him play acoustically at the College where I teach, and he wasn't working super hard, just using arm weight efficiently.

Too many of the young macho players tear away at the strings and "dig in" with no thought to making a GOOD SOUND in the first place. We need to be listening to great players that have played with Wynton, like Ben Wolfe, Carlos Henriques, and others who play acoustic bass in the jazz context, that's a great viewpoint to pay attention to.
 
#30
At least WM also turned some focus on the rest of the combo. That is crucial if the whole ampless thing is going to have even the slightest chance of working. Folks need to think sparse and quiet the #### down or I might as well just leave the upright at home. (Even with the amp, IME... :scowl:)

But, after all is said and done, if Christian McBride has to stick his wrists in a bucket of ice water after a gig with your group, something *might* be out of whack. :eyebrow:
 
#32
Maybe WM can answer the question: Why did the P-Bass become so popular when it came out? IMO, if it was developed 10 or 20 years earlier, it would have been just as popular. Everyone is limited to the technology of the day. Judging it with 20/20 hindsight as "pure" is only one's opinion.

Take a look at guitar player Charlie Christian: "His single-string technique combined with amplification helped bring the guitar out of the rhythm section and into the forefront as a solo instrument." Blues/Jazz guitarists since then were always amplified. Who's complaining about that?

Also, if a brass player uses a mute to modify the tone/volume, what is so "pure" about that?

Reminds me of life in general where people long for the "good, old days". My reply is: yeah, it was good for some, bad for others. Depends on where you want to draw the line. Since we can't go back in time, wishing ain't gonna get it done. Either in music or life in general.
 
#35
I've LONG called him Windy Marsalis, because of his facility for speaking before thinking. How he became the spokesman for the genre is beyond me. Could be self-promotion. Could be it's a sign of how bad things have become in that corner of the industry. I never liked his playing, either. Great mechanic; but no soul.
 

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