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Wynton Marsalis: Sage or Idiot?

#41
LM Bass said:
Wynton is not an idiot, and none of us here plays well enough to back up a comment like that. I don't agree with his viewpoint on everything, but there's no way in a thousand years that I think my opinion has the kind of weight his does.
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Then that's too bad for you. Sorry, I don't buy that argument. People in positions of influence or celebrity don't deserve a free ride just because they're powerful and famous. You don't have to look hard at all to find any number of accomplished, well-known players or critics who are down on WM. That's a discussion that's been going on for a long time. There's no reason why anyone here can't enter it. (Though we make no promises about quality on the internets.)

For what it's worth, I have no great love of playing upright through an amp and will try and do without one whenever I can get away with it. But we need to use the tools that serve the band and the music best. And we should do that out of professionalism or just plain respect for the music, which is more important than my idea about what an 'authentic' or 'perfect' acoustic bass sound should be. Staying in that cult of nostalgia doesn't make sense for working musicians.
 
#43
Hey Red on Red,

I didn't mean to offend, I just think that we have to remember Wynton's playing on records like "Black Codes from the Underground", the Messengers stuff, etc. For me, that's where he gets his authority, not because he is famous.

I, for one, am not worthy! : )

I agree that there are many ways to play jazz, and I love some electric oriented music too: Janek Gwizdala, Rich Brown, Chris Tarry, Damian Erskine and others are playing great electric bass, and I love what they do.
 
#44
LM Bass said:
on another note:
Wynton is not an idiot, and none of us here plays well enough to back up a comment like that. I don't agree with his viewpoint on everything, but there's no way in a thousand years that I think my opinion has the kind of weight his does.
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I think more than few TB'ers can hang with Marsalis musically. All of us are good enough to question his taste, and opinions on music in general.

BTW, as a person who has not really listened to him since the mid 1980s, is he seen as an innovator or trailblazer in jazz? I have always had the impression that he is mainly a traditionalist.
 
#48
In terms of WM comments in bass amplification, he fits the definition of an idiot.

It seems as though WM is only interesting in creating bassists who would suit his own purposes, with no regard for their own tastes or even their own health. As I understand a few bassists have injured themselves pursuing WM impractical vision of bassists in the modern world.

I have never seen WM display adequate knowledge or experience in bass to back up his statements, which simply reminds me of my mentors regular catch phrase:

Everybody thinks they know how to play bass better than the bass player.
 
#49
I play straight-ahead jazz gigs quite a bit. Always with an amp. I do receive compliments regarding my DB tone, and people are actually able to hear the notes I'm playing.

A jazz group playing acoustically is something that has, inherently, severe volume balancing problems -- far more so than a string quartet. The players in the old days dealt with as best they could (frequently successfully) solely because they had no other available option. The drummers always had to pull back or you couldn't hear the bass, and likely not the piano.

If all those great cats from yesteryear somehow had access to the wonderful gear of today, you can bet your last dollar that they would have used it.

Having said all that, I have heard many groups (completely) unplugged in small (as in tiny) club settings. It can be wonderful when all of the musicians succeed in getting the balance problems worked out. Still, I usually have trouble hearing what the bass player is doing.

As for Wynton, I believe his mission is the historical preservation of (a certain subset of) jazz that he holds dear to his heart. I'm not going to call him out for that. He's done a great service to the musical world by renewing interest in some jazz styles that were on their way to becoming extinct.
 
#50
The simple truth is, almost any instrument will be louder acoustically than a double bass. Trumpet, trombone ,sax, drums, even piano will overpower the bass by many dbs.

Only time bass has a chance is in an intimate, very small club setting. Look at the bells on the horns, the size and lid on a grand piano. They're all designed to help the instrument project, plus it's harder to naturally amplify lower frequencies on a stringed instrument. A violin fares much better than a bass in the db department.

Wynton knows all this. He's just so caught up in "purism" that it makes him very dogmatic.

John W.; I played with a blues harp player in the seventies that was the same way. He was against anything the band wanted to do to make us a little more commercially appealing, or make more money. I'm sure he probably died in a $5 a night fleabag hotel room with a smile on his face. :hmm:

BTW; I sold Pat R. that van he bought in 2004 in Biloxi. I was the sales mgr. at the dealership. Always meant to go see you guys after he gave me some CDs. Good stuff!
 
#52
Jefenator said:
At least WM also turned some focus on the rest of the combo. That is crucial if the whole ampless thing is going to have even the slightest chance of working. Folks need to think sparse and quiet the #### down or I might as well just leave the upright at home. (Even with the amp, IME... :scowl:)

But, after all is said and done, if Christian McBride has to stick his wrists in a bucket of ice water after a gig with your group, something *might* be out of whack. :eyebrow:
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As I mentioned in my first post, Christian had a bad bout with tendonitis from that gig. I saw him with the 5 Peace Band and the amps were in abundance.
 
#53
lbwdog said:
The simple truth is, almost any instrument will be louder acoustically than a double bass. Trumpet, trombone ,sax, drums, even piano will overpower the bass by many dbs.

Only time bass has a chance is in an intimate, very small club setting. Look at the bells on the horns, the size and lid on a grand piano. They're all designed to help the instrument project, plus it's harder to naturally amplify lower frequencies on a stringed instrument. A violin fares much better than a bass in the db department.

Wynton knows all this. He's just so caught up in "purism" that it makes him very dogmatic.

John W.; I played with a blues harp player in the seventies that was the same way. He was against anything the band wanted to do to make us a little more commercially appealing, or make more money. I'm sure he probably died in a $5 a night fleabag hotel room with a smile on his face. :hmm:

BTW; I sold Pat R. that van he bought in 2004 in Biloxi. I was the sales mgr. at the dealership. Always meant to go see you guys after he gave me some CDs. Good stuff!
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I traveled down the road almost a quarter-million miles with Pat Ramsey in that van!:eek:
 
#54
I really like Wynton Marsalis's music, and appreciate the fact that he has a vision and sticks to it. But I saw him with the Lincoln Center Jazz orchestra a few months ago, in a very good sounding 1200 seat theatre, and while I'm not positive if there was any PA support (there were some overhead mics, but I have no idea if they were being used), it sure would've been nice if the bass was louder -- I could barely hear it (and, oddly enough, the drums). If you have no problem with your band being recorded by microphones, digitally converted, put on CD (or converted to mp3), and then played on a fan's stereo (which could be anything from really nice sounding to really awful sounding), then i can't imagine why you'd have a problem with a quiet instrument being amplified so that people can hear it.
 
#56
"Over the years, Marsalis has led a one-man crusade against amplifying the bass. Cornish bass man Michael Catts felt the full fury of that crusade, as Marsalis railed at "the basic stupidity" of bass amps, comparing them to a viola player in a string quartet showing up with a microphone".

Hmmmmm, a string quartet does not produce much volume whereas a Jazz band with horns and a loud drummer can get quite loud. His analogy sucks. Right now I'm leaning towards voting idiot.
 
#57
Wyntons stance through the years(and actually Branfords too)is by using a amp on stage it mess's up the natural dynamics of the music because you have now turned the softest instrument on stage into the loudest.The thinking here is that the players should make adjustments so that everybody can hear each other on stage and let the mikes and the P.A bring the sound of the stage to the audience
They also don't care for recording upright Bass with a DI off the pickup preferring to use a Mike to get more of the actual acoustic sound of the bass. I understand where they are coming from but I can't help but notice that most of the URB player's who spent the '50's and '60's being drowned out used amps by the '70's. The first time I saw Christian McBride he was just using a mike in front of his URB but the next time I saw him he had a pickup and a 4x10 LOL
I double although i describe myself as a electric player who plays URB and it's always a adjustment to me volume-wise when I'm playing both on the same gig
 
#58
Every rose has it's thorns. Wynton is, without a doubt, a very smart guy but he's also very opinionated and opinions can clash. I've heard him speak on a lot of topics both related and unrelated to music and he's got some serious insight and a way of speaking that makes you not only interested but willing to try and understand. Unfortunately, this is one thing that I could never agree with him on. I don't see how making an instrument more audible is a bad thing. And to go as far as calling it stupid is baffling.
 
#59
bongomania said:
I've long been peeved by his narrow-minded and very uptight claims about the history and nature of jazz... now to hear he thinks bass amps are "stupid" makes me even less interested in anything else he has to say.
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He is SO bigoted and narrow minded it's mind boggling...I used to really dig him...not so much anymore...his big mouth has all but totally turned me off him. He's kind of like a jazz redneck now...he says some absolutely idiotic things...his ego's completely out of control, IMHO. Too bad, for a musician of his calibre, could be a great ambassador, instead he's often an embarrassment. And I'll bet I'm not the ONLY one he turns off.

Cheers,
Cameron
 

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