Zoom B3 As Preamp

[Cactoose]

Thanks CharlieC.

My second B3 arrived this morning (I sold the first one, but after reading through this, I can see I was far too hasty).

I've collated all your tips, printed 'em out and will settle down this weekend and play.

Thanks again for take the time to do this.

 

[CharlieC]

I was using the B3 in the studio this weekend, and discovered that the 1/4" out was about half the volume of the balanced out. For some reason, I don't think this is right.

I have my Global, total and patch volumes set at 50%. I found that running anything higher was way to hot for whatever I plugged it into. I normally use the balanced line into my amp, so I never noticed this disparity in volume levels until this Monday.

I welcome advice and feedback.


Oh, and the recording sounds freakin' amazing. I am really happy with the bass sound right off the board.

Congrats on the success with the recording!

I have not found the signal level of the B3's effected XLR out to be noticably different than the 1/4" L/MONO out on my unit.

Until others also chime in with their experiences on this, if you would provide more details on your connections, connected equipment, and all specific patch settings, I would be happy to try to recreate the condition you described on my side.

Cheers!

 

[CharlieC]

Thanks CharlieC.

My second B3 arrived this morning (I sold the first one, but after reading through this, I can see I was far too hasty).

I've collated all your tips, printed 'em out and will settle down this weekend and play.

Thanks again for take the time to do this.

Thanks and please keep us posted!

 

[troy mcclure]

Charlie,

If I run the signal into my power amp, then the parallel ( on the amp) out into the PA via xlr I would have the same signal going into each correct?..if I recall in my reading of this thread (4 or 5 times now) the xlr and 1/4 send different signals on the B3 right?

 

[CharlieC]

Charlie,

If I run the signal into my power amp, then the parallel ( on the amp) out into the PA via xlr I would have the same signal going into each correct?..if I recall in my reading of this thread (4 or 5 times now) the xlr and 1/4 send different signals on the B3 right?

The B3's XLR out can be set to mirror the effected signal as taken from the 1/4" L/MONO out or set to output your raw bass signal.

Although I prefer using the unbalanced 1/4" out to feed my power amp, it is possible to use the balanced XLR out instead. If your power amp has a parallel/thru out then yes, you would in-theory be sending the same signal to PA/FOH on that connection.

One thought worthy of consideration is that of the ground lift switch on the B3's XLR out. I am uncertain if using the above parallel out/through method from the power amp would re-introduce a ground loop, therefore I firmly stand by my reasons to feed the power amp via the B3's unbalanced 1/4" and then separately feed PA/FOH via the B3's balanced XLR.

Cheers!

 

[backdraft31]

Thanks!

The situtation you just mentioned is one of the reasons I started this thread.

IMHO, the B3 excels like no other preamp when connected to full-range equipment like powered monitors, mixers/recorders, PA, IEMs, etc. due to its robust and flexible cabinet sims and the "Mix" parameter. IMO, things take a step backward when also trying to simultaneously output to actual bass speakers/cabinets (see past posts for details.)

In short, the scenario you described with a "Mix" value of 100 will produce sound in both your IEMs and real cabinets, but IMHO the IEM sound should be close to spectacular, but the real cabinet sound may appear to come from under a thick, heavy blanket unless you either compensate with the "Mix" value and/or leverage my "Tweeter" workaround (again, see past posts for details.)

Experiment and have fun!

Thanks for your help......

 

[drpepper]

Hey Charlie,

I was interested if you have any thoughts on using aux in on a combo to bypass the preamp. Aux in on the TCE BG250 goes to speaker out. It's obviously not "intended" for use as a power amp in for a preamp, but other than that intent showing up as an 1/8" stereo jack, would it functionally be the same as a proper power amp in on a head?

It does work. Someone pointed out that they had done this with their STL900 and BG250, so I gave it a quick spin last night. We had company at the house, so I tried it at very low volume.

Using the patches and settings I already have established, the only thing I'd note is that it appears I'll have to boost the level on the B3. While those settings have been fine for my band's IEM system, my test of the RH750 power amp, and the Crest I had for a few days, it was much lower than the BG250's preamp. That could be a difference with the aux in.

I'll be taking it to band practice tonight and see what's what.

 

[CharlieC]

Hey Charlie,

I was interested if you have any thoughts on using aux in on a combo to bypass the preamp. Aux in on the TCE BG250 goes to speaker out. It's obviously not "intended" for use as a power amp in for a preamp, but other than that intent showing up as an 1/8" stereo jack, would it functionally be the same as a proper power amp in on a head?

It does work. Someone pointed out that they had done this with their STL900 and BG250, so I gave it a quick spin last night. We had company at the house, so I tried it at very low volume.

Using the patches and settings I already have established, the only thing I'd note is that it appears I'll have to boost the level on the B3. While those settings have been fine for my band's IEM system, my test of the RH750 power amp, and the Crest I had for a few days, it was much lower than the BG250's preamp. That could be a difference with the aux in.

I'll be taking it to band practice tonight and see what's what.

Doc, if it sounds good to you then you have succeeded!

My specific thoughts on this are to not go that route unless you have no other alternative, for various reasons: the "hack" nature, durability, and suspect circuitry typical of 1/8" connections

But again, if it works for you, "Cheers!"

 

[drpepper]

the "hack" nature, durability, and suspect circuitry typical of 1/8" connections

This is part of "that something" at a gut level that tells me this isn't fully right.

Since I'm still in the honeymoon phase with the amp simulations, I'm sure I'll drive it around the block a few times.

 

[CharlieC]

This is part of "that something" at a gut level that tells me this isn't fully right.

Since I'm still in the honeymoon phase with the amp simulations, I'm sure I'll drive it around the block a few times.

The interesting thing in the reported case of the STL900 is that its AUX is a full 1/4", but there is also a dedicated POWER AMP IN jack that I would always choose over the AUX when connecting the B3.

The BG250 appears limited to 1/8".

 

[drpepper]

The interesting thing in the reported case of the STL900 is that its AUX is a full 1/4", but there is also a dedicated POWER AMP IN jack that I would always choose over the AUX when connecting the B3.

The BG250 appears limited to 1/8".

The config that someone else posted about was their preamp out of their STL900 into the aux in on the BG250...no B3 involved. That prompted me to want to try the B3 into aux in on my BG250.

 

[CharlieC]

Zoom MS-60B

It appears that the new Zoom MS-60B pedal is now available in Japan and much, but not all, of the B3 was inherited by it.

I downloaded the Japanese manual and was able to see what sims/effects made the cut as well as what improvements were made over the B3 besides the extra 4th stomp ability. For details, feel free to download the manuals and use Google Translate as I did

The good news is that things look great except for the major question I have regrading the ability for the MS-60B to drive a power amp. The bad news is, I believe that answer would be "No" at this time, based on contents of the manual, until I can get my hands on the actual product for testing.

Cheers!

 

[CharlieC]

^^^

Interesting to note, wish list items to disable Auto Save and preset the tuner to either Bypass/Mute were fulfilled in the MS-60B.

The surprise paradigm shift is the lack of both TOTAL and GLOBAL menus/parameters, keeping the 4 available stomps more like actual chained stomps.

 

[andreas_flf]

Does anyone use much Zoom's expression pedal FP02? I have recently purchased one together with my brand new B3.

I like the B3 very much but I am having difficulties with controlling the volume levels when I switch patches. I'd like to set a minimum level (50%) in all patches for the pedal (Total menu) so that I do not lose all volume on stage regardless of the pedal's position. But contrary to what I expect when having the pedal normally heel down, when I switch among patches, the volume level is not the one I have set the pedal volume to, but something else. Only when I rock the pedal quickly up and down a bit does the volume that comes out of the B3 become the wanted one, i.e. something between min and max as set in the Total menu for the pedal (input volume). Typically this is then a lower level than the one I initially have just after the patch switch.

This is quite annoying when using the B3 as a preamp and frequently switching patches. Then I need not only switch patches but also need to move the pedal before I can actually start playing. This is at least 3 stomps plus some pedal move!! IMHO too much (for anyone possibly wondering what the 3 stomps are: (i) to activate patch selection, (ii) at least one stomp to select the wanted patch, (iii) to return to home, and then comes the awful (iv) rock pedal back and forth before all ready)

Anyone some ideas how to overcome that difficulty? Thanks for any hints or ideas.

 

[CharlieC]

Does anyone use much Zoom's expression pedal FP02? I have recently purchased one together with my brand new B3.

I like the B3 very much but I am having difficulties with controlling the volume levels when I switch patches. I'd like to set a minimum level (50%) in all patches for the pedal (Total menu) so that I do not lose all volume on stage regardless of the pedal's position. But contrary to what I expect when having the pedal normally heel down, when I switch among patches, the volume level is not the one I have set the pedal volume to, but something else. Only when I rock the pedal quickly up and down a bit does the volume that comes out of the B3 become the wanted one, i.e. something between min and max as set in the Total menu for the pedal (input volume). Typically this is then a lower level than the one I initially have just after the patch switch.

This is quite annoying when using the B3 as a preamp and frequently switching patches. Then I need not only switch patches but also need to move the pedal before I can actually start playing. This is at least 3 stomps plus some pedal move!! IMHO too much (for anyone possibly wondering what the 3 stomps are: (i) to activate patch selection, (ii) at least one stomp to select the wanted patch, (iii) to return to home, and then comes the awful (iv) rock pedal back and forth before all ready)

Anyone some ideas how to overcome that difficulty? Thanks for any hints or ideas.

I believe the B3 recalls the last known value of the expression pedal when a patch is selected. Upon patch selection, it does not synchronize the recalled value to current pedal position. Only when subsequent pedal movement is detected will the B3 update the patch's value to current pedal position in an awkward attempt to catch-up.

Complicating things even more is that the B3 automatically saves all patch changes upon selection of other patches, therefore having a consistent initial expression pedal value upon patch selection is not really an option.

Sorry to say, I know of no workaround for this besides Zoom actually addressing the issue in form of a firmware update or consideration for future product(s)

Cheers!

 

[andreas_flf]

Thanks CharlieC. You confirm somewhat what I feared, i.e. there might be no easy solution.

I have to admit, since I own also the POD X3 from Line 6 that I am a bit spoiled in this respect. Upon patch switch with the POD's pedal FBV Express MkII I have always the volume level as given by the pedal position. BTW, I bought the B3 for the good sound and to carry less weight onto the plane than I have with the rather heavy Line 6 equipment.

Thus my struggle with good B3 settings that are easy to switch will continue. Note, since I am switching instruments, from bass to e-cello and vice-versa in the middle of songs, I need convenient settings that allow quick switching where volume does not change much. Still a bit of a challenge I have to admit. Mostly because of too big differences in volume rather than sound. Besides my equipment is described here Invalid Link Removed.

"The B3 recalling the last known value of the expression pedal" would make sense, at least it would match my experience. I will check this out precisely and report back. Thanks CharlieC, most helpful.

 

[CharlieC]

Thanks CharlieC. You confirm somewhat what I feared, i.e. there might be no easy solution.

I have to admit, since I own also the POD X3 from Line 6 that I am a bit spoiled in this respect. Upon patch switch with the POD's pedal FBV Express MkII I have always the volume level as given by the pedal position. BTW, I bought the B3 for the good sound and to carry less weight onto the plane than I have with the rather heavy Line 6 equipment.

Thus my struggle with good B3 settings that are easy to switch will continue. Note, since I am switching instruments, from bass to e-cello and vice-versa in the middle of songs, I need convenient settings that allow quick switching where volume does not change much. Still a bit of a challenge I have to admit. Mostly because of too big differences in volume rather than sound. Besides my equipment is described here Invalid Link Removed.

"The B3 recalling the last known value of the expression pedal" would make sense, at least it would match my experience. I will check this out precisely and report back. Thanks CharlieC, most helpful.

Thanks and I also have another suggestion for you that would require additional hardware.

I believe there are attenuating IN/OUT volume pedals available that you could put between a 1/4" out on the B3 and your amp. This pedal would not be affected by any patch changes and it would be consistent. You could also send that same signal through an external direct box to also feed FOH with your volume changes.

Cheers!

 

[andreas_flf]

Thanks and I also have another suggestion for you that would require additional hardware.

I believe there are attenuating IN/OUT volume pedals available that you could put between a 1/4" out on the B3 and your amp. This pedal would not be affected by any patch changes and it would be consistent. You could also send that same signal through an external direct box to also feed FOH with your volume changes.

Cheers!

Good idea, CharlieC. Indeed I have found myself sometimes swearing at the expression pedal and was thinking to get rid of it in favor of such a volume pedal. However, I have two arguments against this:

First, I use the expression pedal not only for volume control but for some songs also to control the effect balance (mix between currently active effects from the patch and original sound) where I gradually mix the effects to the sound in the end part of the song. For this purpose I need the expression pedal.

Then, secondly, having an extra volume pedal plus a DI box means to add more equipment where I tried to minimize weight for reasons of not having overweight with my plane luggage in the first place.

What this all boils down to is that I am not giving up yet to find a solution with the expression pedal.

But thanks anyway, good thinking and helped me to make progress.

 

[jovino]

Would it help to set the "TOTAL" volume to 0, and configure the expression to control the levels? In theory, the box should default to what the patch is set to, and then the expression overrides it as soon as its used. This way your volume is always down when you switch patches.

I'm going to try this tomorrow to see if it works. If it does, I will report back... and probably redo many of my patch settings to take advantage of this "feature."

 

[andreas_flf]

Would it help to set the "TOTAL" volume to 0, and configure the expression to control the levels? In theory, the box should default to what the patch is set to, and then the expression overrides it as soon as its used. This way your volume is always down when you switch patches.

I'm going to try this tomorrow to see if it works. If it does, I will report back... and probably redo many of my patch settings to take advantage of this "feature."

Yes please, try this out. Very good reasoning. Thanks.

BTW, which volume levels do you control? Input or output? Most of my patches control the input volume (as given by default) and in my first rounds of editing my patches I have only changed that by setting the minimum to 50% to always having a decent level. I typically use my volume pedal as a booster and I like to have a fix point of volume where I can trust a wanted level comes out of the PA from the very first tone played on my bass or e-cello.

But since I am still struggling with so uneven volume levels between patches, having some effects on or off etc., I wonder whether it would not be better to rather control the output volume with the pedal and having that the very same, say at 50% (or more, depending on global level), for all patches. FOH would then get a steady signal level from the XLR output of the B3 whenever the heel down position of the pedal has been recognized by the B3. What's your view on this?

Cheers