Probably not good to get too hung up on the fractional description of bass sizes as it can be somewhat vague. Better to think in terms of the scale length with accompanying description of body shape/size, neck profile, range of notes etc.
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Double Bass 1/4 Size upright, any fullsize people playing them?
- Thread starter paddydukes
- Start date
Lauren is one of the greatest classical solo players out there. A true hero of the instrument. I have learned tons from watching her. I know she had a much larger bass before that. She is making a huge impact on many fronts with podcast and using youtube effectively and playing at the highest level.
Classical soloists have often used smaller basses, even what is called a chamber bass tuned A-C. There are many fine half size basses out there. That is hugely different from a 1/4 plywood bass - mainly meant for starting kids out.
There are two beautiful small chamber basses owned by two Dutch bassists(Barry Guy used own one and tuned it A-C, I think these guys are doing E-G:
Wilbert De Joode:
and Ernst Glerum:
My bass teacher Lisle Ellis had a half size bass, I can't find video of it, but he recorded this on it:
Hand size wouldn't be a good reason. Ease of travel and the fact that these are incredible instruments (same goes for Lauren).
Also: bass sizing is not uniform like violins. I have a small 3/4, I've seen many that are much bigger. Lauren's bass looks to be on the larger end of a 1/2 size to me.
Classical soloists have often used smaller basses, even what is called a chamber bass tuned A-C. There are many fine half size basses out there. That is hugely different from a 1/4 plywood bass - mainly meant for starting kids out.
There are two beautiful small chamber basses owned by two Dutch bassists(Barry Guy used own one and tuned it A-C, I think these guys are doing E-G:
Wilbert De Joode:
and Ernst Glerum:
My bass teacher Lisle Ellis had a half size bass, I can't find video of it, but he recorded this on it:
Hand size wouldn't be a good reason. Ease of travel and the fact that these are incredible instruments (same goes for Lauren).
Also: bass sizing is not uniform like violins. I have a small 3/4, I've seen many that are much bigger. Lauren's bass looks to be on the larger end of a 1/2 size to me.
The two biggest misconceptions about the double bass:
A. A person's hands are too small
B. A person has "big enough hands" to use bass guitar fingering.
I've never seen either be true in almost 25 years of teaching and playing!
A. A person's hands are too small
B. A person has "big enough hands" to use bass guitar fingering.
I've never seen either be true in almost 25 years of teaching and playing!
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My thin necked bass isn't unplayable, but the mechanics have to be adjusted a little. The cello is different mostly because of the size of the neck and string spacing. A cello neck is smaller in all the dimensions, not just thickness.
Wrt the hand pics Jeff showed, my teacher told me, in my very first lesson, to keep my left thumb hooked, so close to 90° on the first joint. Hooking the thumb opens the hand & reduces strain, and is advisable certainly on a thin neck (though the time I had a Hungarian 3/4 with quite a thick neck). But I don't always do it, and neither did he...
she is fast but is playing the piece too fast losing the richness of the piece of music.
The principal bass player for the Berlin Philharmonic plays that piece somewhat slower. It can be found on youtube. It is on a bigger bass and the music sings.
I have a Kania contrabass and a full size. I like the small size a lot...it has a great fingerboard. It is great for practices and a dream for transport. Not the same sound of course but it is a keeper.
I went to a music store yesterday and they had ordered in a 1/2 size bass for me to try out. It was made of plywood front and back. Spruce on top, maple on back, arched.
Pros:
1. It was a BIG DIFFERENCE in playability compared to the 3/4 size. I could actually play bass lines that would work in a band immediately, even though I know my technique was probably wrong. The salespeople said I sounded really good, but that may have just been salesmanship.
2. Second, it growled like a typical upright bass does on all notes in the lower register.
3. It was barely quieter than a 3/4 model. I didn't notice a big difference, and the volume filled the room to the point I was sort of interfering with people talking now and then. At least, they had to raise their voices a bit.
Cons
1. When I tried to play in the upper register on the 1/2 size, the action was REALLY HIGH. It sounded almost like a pinging sound you get when you pluck your strings between the nut and the tuners on an electric bass. It sounded awful and was unplayable in my view. The luthier told me it was because it doesn't have a carved top, so the sound doesn't resonate, but I think there might have been was a setup problem. I think the neck needed a different angle entirely to make the action more even across the full range of the fingerboard.
2. My gut is big (working on that) and it was still hard to get at the upper register, and the neck seems distant from me, but I was still able to reach over the neck in an arched hand position to reach the e-string. Not so on the 3/4 size. When you have two oval surfaces touching each other (the bass and my gut), it makes for impassable distance, it seems. As I said, I'm working on that. Been exercising regularly.
Because my arms are short, they had to really pull the endpin out so I could reach the area between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge. This made the first position seem really high compared to my eye and head. But I was able to play reasonably well with the end pin pushed in more, lowering the height of the bass, if I pluck over the top of the high end the fingerboard. It caused more growl anyway plucking higher up the instrument, and I liked the sound better, so I might be able to make it work.
But overall, I was hopeful that perhaps a 1/2 size one might work for me. My biggest issue was not playing the notes, (although I did have a few problems now and then) it was intonation and the upper register problem. On the 3/4 I hated everything about it.
The 1/4 sized one was not set up. It felt REALLY GOOD to hold it. With a smaller body, it was way easier to hold. They are setting it up for me with new strings so I will try it out today or tomorrow. They said they didn't think it mattered what size I played as long as I was willing to to amplify the 1/4 sized instrument.
I have more hope that I can play one of these things now. I know the 3/4 size is out for me based on playing three of them for an hour last time I was there. If I buy the 3/4 sized thing, it will sit in my room unplayed.
Also, I noticed by the end of the my 45 minute session with the 1/2 size, I was sweating, and no one else in the store was. Do you find playing the upright gives you a workout? I am not in great shape, but much better now that I walk 2-5 miles a day breaking a sweat and getting my heart pumping....so I am not convinced it's because I'm necessarily out of shape. Not at all a deterrent to playing the instrument. To break a sweat doing something enjoyable is welcome.
Comments on any of this stuff? I am getting close it seems.
Pros:
1. It was a BIG DIFFERENCE in playability compared to the 3/4 size. I could actually play bass lines that would work in a band immediately, even though I know my technique was probably wrong. The salespeople said I sounded really good, but that may have just been salesmanship.
2. Second, it growled like a typical upright bass does on all notes in the lower register.
3. It was barely quieter than a 3/4 model. I didn't notice a big difference, and the volume filled the room to the point I was sort of interfering with people talking now and then. At least, they had to raise their voices a bit.
Cons
1. When I tried to play in the upper register on the 1/2 size, the action was REALLY HIGH. It sounded almost like a pinging sound you get when you pluck your strings between the nut and the tuners on an electric bass. It sounded awful and was unplayable in my view. The luthier told me it was because it doesn't have a carved top, so the sound doesn't resonate, but I think there might have been was a setup problem. I think the neck needed a different angle entirely to make the action more even across the full range of the fingerboard.
2. My gut is big (working on that) and it was still hard to get at the upper register, and the neck seems distant from me, but I was still able to reach over the neck in an arched hand position to reach the e-string. Not so on the 3/4 size. When you have two oval surfaces touching each other (the bass and my gut), it makes for impassable distance, it seems. As I said, I'm working on that. Been exercising regularly.
Because my arms are short, they had to really pull the endpin out so I could reach the area between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge. This made the first position seem really high compared to my eye and head. But I was able to play reasonably well with the end pin pushed in more, lowering the height of the bass, if I pluck over the top of the high end the fingerboard. It caused more growl anyway plucking higher up the instrument, and I liked the sound better, so I might be able to make it work.
But overall, I was hopeful that perhaps a 1/2 size one might work for me. My biggest issue was not playing the notes, (although I did have a few problems now and then) it was intonation and the upper register problem. On the 3/4 I hated everything about it.
The 1/4 sized one was not set up. It felt REALLY GOOD to hold it. With a smaller body, it was way easier to hold. They are setting it up for me with new strings so I will try it out today or tomorrow. They said they didn't think it mattered what size I played as long as I was willing to to amplify the 1/4 sized instrument.
I have more hope that I can play one of these things now. I know the 3/4 size is out for me based on playing three of them for an hour last time I was there. If I buy the 3/4 sized thing, it will sit in my room unplayed.
Also, I noticed by the end of the my 45 minute session with the 1/2 size, I was sweating, and no one else in the store was. Do you find playing the upright gives you a workout? I am not in great shape, but much better now that I walk 2-5 miles a day breaking a sweat and getting my heart pumping....so I am not convinced it's because I'm necessarily out of shape. Not at all a deterrent to playing the instrument. To break a sweat doing something enjoyable is welcome.
Comments on any of this stuff? I am getting close it seems.
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Comfort and consistent intonation takes years, not minutes. You need to try a normal bass with a real teacher - not music store clerks.
Book a lesson with a classical teacher, use their bass at the lesson before you spend a dime on a bass.
Action is always too high on music store basses - the logic being it is easier to lower than raise.
Book a lesson with a classical teacher, use their bass at the lesson before you spend a dime on a bass.
Action is always too high on music store basses - the logic being it is easier to lower than raise.
About the string height, it will always be higher than on electric bass, but too high is too high. On a 3/4 bass, something like 6 mm to 8 mm from G to E, measured from the end of the fingerboard to the strings, would be an OK starting point, for instance on a student bass. I doubt a 1/2 size would be radically different.
Traditionally, if you buy a bass from a luthier shop, the bridge will be set up by the shop based on your local climate and preferences. These days, they will typically install bridge adjusters at the same time. For instance at my friendly neighborhood luthier shop, every bass comes with an adjustable bridge, including the plywood basses.
Traditionally, if you buy a bass from a luthier shop, the bridge will be set up by the shop based on your local climate and preferences. These days, they will typically install bridge adjusters at the same time. For instance at my friendly neighborhood luthier shop, every bass comes with an adjustable bridge, including the plywood basses.
I suppose if you are comfortable with a 1/4 then you should use it. I myself am moving up to a 3/4 soon and I am thirteen. For many people the fingers will be too close but if that is what you are comfortable with then by all means use a 1/4
Go ahead and buy it then if you're so convinced it's the best thing for you...no sweat off anyone's ass here. If you're smart you'll rent it though and take some lessons before you invest. Maybe an in the flesh teacher with bass in hand can show you what several experienced players here have tried to tell you.
Best of luck.
Best of luck.
Everyone needs to watch this video. Two professional bass players sharing their journey toward finding their ideal bass.
Here are my takeaways, particularly from Lauren who is the same height I am (she discloses her height in the video at 5'3"). Now that I've actually played a few instruments in our local stringed instrument shop for a three hours or more (getting help and advice from their resident bass player and luthier there), I am finding agreement between the two sets of people -- the store people and the professionals in the video above, and some of the people on Talkbass, but not the majority on Talkbass. Here are the findings.
1. Lauren indicated a problem that shorter people have, that I also ran into at the store. My arms aren't long enough to reach the area I am supposed to be plucking or bowing on a 3/4 size. With the 3/4 bass, I had to really pull out the endpin to raise the instrument so my right arm could reach the plucking and bowing positions. But that made it too high at the headstock end of the instrument. So arm length is an issue. You may have short people with long arms for whom it is fine, but not so with me. My whole life I've cursed my arms because I can't reach things. Like stuff on the floor of the passenger side of the car when I am sitting in the driver's seat, stationary and not even driving yet.
2. She commented on how the shoulders of some instruments are really wide and make it very hard to get around the neck at the upper register. That one needs to find an instrument with narrower shoulders if this is a problem. Her shorter students have this a problem, she said. This was a problem I too experienced with the 3/4 instrument.
3. She measured her bass, and although the store said it was 5/8, it was actually a 1/2 size based on standard measurements she sourced from somewhere. She said the store won't label their professional basses by size -- perhaps because of the stigma against anything less than a 3/4 sized instrument?
4. She acknowledged that being shorter than average, she needed a smaller instrument -- so the "3/4 size fits all" mentality may be true for many people, but not all, including certain professionals like Lauren.
5. She said something that really resonated with me -- she knew she had found the right bass when it fit her so well, and had the right tone, she played it FOREVER. It felt right, and she knew it was the one. It had the right tone AND it fit her body well. So an important litmus test is the extent to which you bond with the instrument and have this feeling you can't put it down, like a good book.
6. They also emphasized it's a very personal decision, which of these sizes and which bass you should get.
So, meaning no disrespect to the people who are 3/4 size advocates, I think there are considerations that only the person living in their own body can assess.
7. She got by on an instrument that was not ideal for about 6 years before she really knew what she wanted....and realized that first bass did not cut it.
So, at the risk of ticking people off, I think I have been right in resisting the "3/4 fits all" advice so far. For me, it's 1/2 or 1/4 size (the 1/2 size is still hard to play for me, but doable, so I think the 5/8 would be out too).
Now, I have a question, how long do you think you need to rent a bass, playing about an hour a day, to really understand it and decide if it is fitting, working with a teacher?
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The problem here is she is in a whole other place and was playing at a high level when she made that decision. Also, she is a classical soloist.
When someone like her says "professional instrument" she is talking about something surely upwards of 20k. You are unlikely to find anything of basic quality in a normal price range. Solid and playable 3/4s can be found as low as 2k if you look hard enough.
Basically, you are trying to make an advanced and unorthodox decision out of the gate, like people who want to start with 5ths tuning or something. You are also going with one of the most common misconceptions - if you are right you are exception to the rule.
I am all for smaller basses, I have a smaller punchy 3/4 flatback and I am 6'2. I don't think anyone is saying 3/4s fits all, we are saying get in the room with a real teacher (or two) who can show you how to get around a double bass properly this will go futher than any rental fees.
When someone like her says "professional instrument" she is talking about something surely upwards of 20k. You are unlikely to find anything of basic quality in a normal price range. Solid and playable 3/4s can be found as low as 2k if you look hard enough.
Basically, you are trying to make an advanced and unorthodox decision out of the gate, like people who want to start with 5ths tuning or something. You are also going with one of the most common misconceptions - if you are right you are exception to the rule.
I am all for smaller basses, I have a smaller punchy 3/4 flatback and I am 6'2. I don't think anyone is saying 3/4s fits all, we are saying get in the room with a real teacher (or two) who can show you how to get around a double bass properly this will go futher than any rental fees.
How familiar are you with Lauren's principle choice of reptoire and playing style?
If you spend most of your time playing arco seated in the upper register of the instrument, then the ergonomics and acoustic performance of the bass for that application will be top of the priority list - but if you are not a classical soloist, and instead the mainstay of your playing is as a member of an orchestral section, playing trad bluegrass, rockabilly or jazz then your principle requirements of what you need your bass to deliver may vary somewhat.
The key issue IMHO is that it is not really possible to make a good informed judgement until you have developed some technique and experience - when I first got my DB it felt enormous, the neck seemed like a telegraph pole and the notes felt like they were miles away from each other, and getting into thumb position seemed impossible, but having spent a couple of years working on developing my technique according to traditional classical methods and dragging it to various gigs/jams/rehearsals my perspective on the same instrument is much different - now the neck feels a bit thin, and the note spacing seems cramped in comparison to instruments that have fuller neck profiles and string lengths closer to 42", thumb position is straightforward(although my playing up there still sucks) and getting my DB about the place by car, public transport or on foot feels easy.
re-post from Pau's painted basss thread:
Right, I am going to post this on both of Pau's threads because it has to do with both:
You are not going to get any more work from ANYONE who even uses the word "client" with a kooky little painted bass.
Your problem is trying to get commercial work. All your ideas would be fine if you were doing your own thing but not help in the least for commercial work.
You are already going to be down the call list as a doubler from full time upright players or even doublers who focus on the upright.
Nobody wants "clients" doing a double take to figure out what the hell you are playing, ("Is that a black chello?").
Rather than trying to find a work around for double bass, you are better off focusing on getting more bass guitar gigs - that is a known quantity and it will be far less hassle and expense to just get another bass guitar gig than to go through all this to get one extra gig from spending thousands of $$ on an unorthodox instrument.
Right, I am going to post this on both of Pau's threads because it has to do with both:
You are not going to get any more work from ANYONE who even uses the word "client" with a kooky little painted bass.
Your problem is trying to get commercial work. All your ideas would be fine if you were doing your own thing but not help in the least for commercial work.
You are already going to be down the call list as a doubler from full time upright players or even doublers who focus on the upright.
Nobody wants "clients" doing a double take to figure out what the hell you are playing, ("Is that a black chello?").
Rather than trying to find a work around for double bass, you are better off focusing on getting more bass guitar gigs - that is a known quantity and it will be far less hassle and expense to just get another bass guitar gig than to go through all this to get one extra gig from spending thousands of $$ on an unorthodox instrument.
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One of the first things I learned about DB is that the sizes are not standard. As one person said, "I challenge you to find any measurement on that bass that is '3/4' of any measurement on a full size."
It took me about 6 months of playing daily to decide that "yes, I can do this", and start thinking about buying my own. I rented my first two. I got a 1/4 size first, quickly realized it was not doing me any good to learn on an undersized instrument, and upgraded the rental to a 3/4. This was a CCB, and the lack of quality showed.
So yes, I have to agree with those who have said or implied that you're making a bunch of assumptions and trying to "decide" things when you really don't have enough experience to make those decisions. This isn't meant as a slam; I do the same thing, but at 56 I've learned to chill a bit and take things as they come.
Good luck! Be prepared to play it a LOT before you're ready to gig with it. I've been playing BG for 45+ years, and it took me almost a year before I wandered out in public with my double, and frankly, I still wasn't ready at that time, but the set list was easy.
-- Sam
This thread is kind of bugging me. I'm 5'5" and have been playing 3/4 sized basses for the entire time I have been playing, and one of them was pretty big for 3/4. I have about as small of hands as any grown man you'll meet. I used to use jacked up Gut strings and play acoustically in bars in NYC. I pull a good sound and can get pretty loud on every bass I've owned, none of which were anything but student plywood basses. It's all about technique. If you actually learn how to play the instrument, hand size means very little. To be fair, I probably wouldn't go 7/8 or anything with a string length over 42". I'd probably avoid anything with really huge shoulders, as well. That rules out like 2% of all basses.
Due to the nature of the music they play and what registers they spend the majority of their time in, many classical soloists (like Lauren Pierce) go for a smaller bass. Edgar Meyer isn't particularly small, but he plays a small bass as well. It works for what they do, and the instruments they play are investment-quality masterworks that are probably in the top .05% of all basses in existence. Not a plywood Shen, Strunal, or Engelhardt.
I also used to play a vintage 1/4 size Kay M-3 at a jam session regularly. It had a pretty tobbacco burst finish. While I appreciated the bar having a house bass, it was quiet, hard to play, and had a weird visual quality with a massively long endpin. I don't know the level you are working at, but the people I play with could tell the difference with both their eyes and ears. When I started bringing my bass to the jam, people started asking for my card. I question getting one of these things expecting it to open up business opportunities.
Due to the nature of the music they play and what registers they spend the majority of their time in, many classical soloists (like Lauren Pierce) go for a smaller bass. Edgar Meyer isn't particularly small, but he plays a small bass as well. It works for what they do, and the instruments they play are investment-quality masterworks that are probably in the top .05% of all basses in existence. Not a plywood Shen, Strunal, or Engelhardt.
I also used to play a vintage 1/4 size Kay M-3 at a jam session regularly. It had a pretty tobbacco burst finish. While I appreciated the bar having a house bass, it was quiet, hard to play, and had a weird visual quality with a massively long endpin. I don't know the level you are working at, but the people I play with could tell the difference with both their eyes and ears. When I started bringing my bass to the jam, people started asking for my card. I question getting one of these things expecting it to open up business opportunities.
