Double Bass 1/4 Size upright, any fullsize people playing them?

[PauFerro]

Update: Installed a K&K Double Twin transducer on the bridge that I got from Gollihur. Ran it to my Ampeg BA-110 combo amp with no preamp first. Really needed the preamp that Gollihur sells with it, as the tone was distorted, or non-existent when I went into the 0 db or -15 db inputs on the amplifier without the preamplifier.

However, as soon as I added the preamp to the system, it gave an undistorted tone, and with some tweaking even replicated the aftertones (the buzz/mwah) to the amplifier just like it sounds acoustically. Had someone stand back from me and the amp, and let me know if it carried, and it did. The instructions from Gollihur indicated you can't tell how it sounds because you are standing next to the instrument, so you need to know what the audience hears. And that means having someone either play it for you, or someone listen to it for you from a distance.

So, it passed the test. According to my helper, it sounds almost exactly the same as the bass itself, without amplification, when I run it through this system. It sounds the same way to me when I stand next to it and play it as well.

Gollihur's site was pretty helpful in helping me pick the right system for my pizzicato jazz style. Glad I didn't have to wade through several different pickups to find one that sounds the way I wanted.

Some day I hope to provide a recording so people can hear what a 1/4 size sounds like in this brand, Ametto...so far so good. Am happy with the tone and playability, and I've added two more songs to my upright repertoire. Goal is a full set by the 15th of January. With being on holidays this next week, I think that's possible. It means 6 more songs...in a little over a week....fun times! Really enjoying myself.

 

[PauFerro]

Thought I would give an update.

Two and a half months out, so far I have no regrets on the 1/4 size. I do have to amplify it in just about any setting, but I am OK with it. I have taken it to about 5 gigs now where I use it on about a third the material when it fits -- mostly traditional jazz that is relatively simple -- walking and bossa, as well as soul jazz. I have soloed on a few tunes, although I find I am still working on intonation around the Ab, Db Gb, Cb area where the FB meets the body -- sometimes I hit it right on and other times I miss up there. It's a topic of repeated practice.

It's passed the criticality of 7 musicians I work with in different settings, two of whom are pretty critical artist types. The particular brand I got produces a very upright tone. It's not Brian Bomberg's Downright Upright, but it has some terrific grind on lower register notes.

Although I suspect I may get a bigger instrument some day, for now, it works very well for me. I did play a 1/2 size in a store recently, and with the new muscles developed in my hands, it was a lot easier than when I was shopping.

My only regret is the cost of figuring out amplification. At first the piezo pickup was fine, but it's developed this terrible distortion even without a preamp. Same with the preamp. I don't know what gives but I can't use it.

And I thought I had it figured out by going directly into the board with an electromagnetic pickup. That got me all the power I needed when I had to project across a lake using my own mixer and powered speakers. This has worked for my own gigs where I do my own sound.

Then I brought it to a music festival where they estimated attendance of 1000 people, using the sound man's amp, and it was too quiet. His gain was all the way up and it was barely suitable. I chose not to use it on that gig, although it stood on the stage next to me. We have determined that my personal mixer has a really strong gain, while the pro sound man's mixer did not. So, I will be putting the preamp back into the signal chain.

The other thing that happened that was good -- there is a full-time upright bassist in our town. He earns his living teaching and performing. We were hob nobbing in the Artists area behind the stage at the music festival, and I told him about my agony about picking the right sized instrument. He offered to have me over to show me, gratis, a few tips and tricks on my new upright. He was OK with the 1/4 size thing. I was afraid other musicians wouldn't accept me, but locally, that has not been a problem.

So, no disprespect to the 3/4 size musicians, but I feel that at my age, my size, and my concern I would never make it through the requisite 2-10 years to be gig-worthy on the instrument, I have made a decision that works for me now.

The fact that I can gig is huge in the mix -- I play the thing every day quite a bit, and yes, I believe I could play a 1/2 or 3/4 someday. My motivation is very high, the driver of the whole experience. But until I'm ready to upgrade, I'm really enjoying myself.

 

[PauFerro]

Further Update. 8 months have passed since I bought my 1/4 size upright. Some good things have happened

1) It has passed the approval of all the players I gig with, many of whom are top of the scene. The gig I did last weekend had the top keyboard player in town and he said he liked the tone and was surprised how loud I made it given its size.

2) A singer, who is part of a jazz/dance band I work with, invited me to be her upright bass player on a theatre act she is doing. This is double the pay of a regular local gig (actually, about 2.5 times the pay) and is in a theatre. Someone has hired her to put on a formal show with tickets sold in advance. This is my first gig as a side man in a show that is a step way up from corporate and wedding work.

3) I have had about 10 gigs where I took the upright. On about 5 of the gigs I played upright exclusively.

4) I can sight read charts now in any key and play in tune on the upright.

5) I played a 1/2 size upright the other day, and it was effortless to play the notes, although I will have to work at intonation a bit to adjust.

6) At a rock dance band gig, one of the strings on my electric bass snapped. I ended up playing the whole hour of dance music on upright. Having it there saved me because I was out of replacement electric bass strings.

I believe I did the right thing transitioning from electric to upright this way for a few reasons.

1) The use of the upright on gigs has fueled my motivation to practice.
2) I saw progress almost immediately, and even did two simple songs the day after I bought the instrument at a New Year's Eve gig.
3) At a rental fee of $150/month, I would have spent about $1200 on renting a 3/4 to see if I liked it. I purchased the upright for $1500 on sale, and can sell it for about $900. So I think I did well financially compared to renting an upright.
4) I like the instrument now. Neck feels thin, I know how to make it do a jazz grind, etcetera.

 

[bobsax]

Cool
I would love to see/hear it. I don't think Youtube has any videos of a pro playing a 1/4 size.
Please get somebody to record it on their phone at your next gig.
bob

Further Update. 8 months have passed since I bought my 1/4 size upright. Some good things have happened

1) It has passed the approval of all the players I gig with, many of whom are top of the scene. The gig I did last weekend had the top keyboard player in town and he said he liked the tone and was surprised how loud I made it given its size.

2) A singer, who is part of a jazz/dance band I work with, invited me to be her upright bass player on a theatre act she is doing. This is double the pay of a regular local gig (actually, about 2.5 times the pay) and is in a theatre. Someone has hired her to put on a formal show with tickets sold in advance. This is my first gig as a side man in a show that is a step way up from corporate and wedding work.

3) I have had about 10 gigs where I took the upright. On about 5 of the gigs I played upright exclusively.

4) I can sight read charts now in any key and play in tune on the upright.

5) I played a 1/2 size upright the other day, and it was effortless to play the notes, although I will have to work at intonation a bit to adjust.

6) At a rock dance band gig, one of the strings on my electric bass snapped. I ended up playing the whole hour of dance music on upright. Having it there saved me because I was out of replacement electric bass strings.

I believe I did the right thing transitioning from electric to upright this way for a few reasons.

1) The use of the upright on gigs has fueled my motivation to practice.
2) I saw progress almost immediately, and even did two simple songs the day after I bought the instrument at a New Year's Eve gig.
3) At a rental fee of $150/month, I would have spent about $1200 on renting a 3/4 to see if I liked it. I purchased the upright for $1500 on sale, and can sell it for about $900. So I think I did well financially compared to renting an upright.
4) I like the instrument now. Neck feels thin, I know how to make it do a jazz grind, etcetera.

 

[PauFerro]

Cool
I would love to see/hear it. I don't think Youtube has any videos of a pro playing a 1/4 size.
Please get somebody to record it on their phone at your next gig.
bob

Just remember, I don't consider myself a pro -- not even on electric. I don't want this to digress into being perceived as a guy who thinks he's hot stuff because I'm not. I'm an OK bass player on electric. And probably just OK on upright, and even then only in the lower register.

Our groups are gigging without any media online, so there is a lot of talk about a recording. Will see if I can get a decent recording together at some point. I consider myself semi-pro because I don't do it full time. But I gig a lot for a local guy.

 

[damonsmith]

4) I can sight read charts now in any key and play in tune on the upright.

That is a bold claim.

 

[Don Kasper]

That is a bold claim.

Fixed...

 

[damonsmith]

Fixed...

Maybe that 1/4 size is from the Harz mountains in Germany...

 

[brianrost]

I have a Kay 1/4, currently on loan to a young friend in college. It was used by my daughter in middle school and high school. Compared to a 3/4 Kay, the feel of the neck is similar (skinny!) and the tone is (as expected) less deep and not as loud. I bought it from Steve Azola who had mounted a K&K Bass Max pickup and mounted jack in the tailpiece.

While it's an obvious choice for a smaller, younger player I'm not sure I'd recommend it for an adult. It's simple for a BG player (esp. one who has fretless experience) to play but if/when you move to a 3/4, you have to start all over again with your left hand. I've been thinking about converting it to a piccolo bass when I get it back from my friend.

Per Damon's comment above, the only way to really play in tune on any DB is years of practice especially with the bow where poor intonation is more easily exposed.

 

[PauFerro]

May be a bold statement, but only to DB players. Other instrumentalists don't seem to care one bit -- none of them. For me, the proof is in the reactions of the local musicians and the quality of the gigs I've been getting with it. For me, it works. Amplification was hard, but I found a way of making it reliably loud.

At some point I hope to go up to the 1/2 size or maybe the 3/4 size, but at that time the transition will be easy to manage-- based on my experience with the 1/2 size recently.

I already have the muscle strength now. At first it was really hard. For weeks my shoulders, hands, and arms were sore from lifting the bass off the stand, and then playing it. My hands felt like Anvils hanging from Neanderthal shoulders. Now, I have no problem and can do hours on it. And the 1/2 size didn't feel much different when I tried it.

So far no regrets as it got me out there using it, and I play every day now.

There are some really cool songs I did in the rock group I started. We did Gimme one Reason by Tracey Chapman as an upright and vocal duet to start off the song. Mercy Mercy Mercy in the jazz band starts out with a sax and upright duet. Stand By Me in the Rock band is well suited to the Upright. And of course, all the jazz tunes we play work well with it.

I still have to conquer the upper register, but it hasn't been critical to getting gigs.

But it's not all la la land. You have to amplify it in all but the most quiet situations. But it's an excellent way of overcoming the entry barriers to getting into upright -- particularly for an older guy who doesn't feel he has the 2-10 years people have said you need to be gig worthy.

 

[Jay Corwin]

But it's an excellent way of overcoming the entry barriers to getting into upright

Barriers or challenges? One blocks progress, while the other requires discipline and hard work to progress.

4) I can sight read charts now in any key and play in tune on the upright.

You should write your own method book having been able to accomplish this on a part time basis in only 8 months. It would sell like hot cakes.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Lol at that thinly veiled braggy "i'm proving this can work" list. If 1/4 gets you where you need to be, then no worries. But i desire something more out of my bass that a smaller bass is not going to give me. I want a larger than life sound like my heroes. If 1/4 was sufficient, why the hell would they bother to make bigger ones? For the sound, that's why.

 

[Jay Corwin]

For me, the proof is in the reactions of the local musicians and the quality of the gigs I've been getting with it.

With regards to getting gigs as an upright player, the amount of, and quality of are not necessarily a reflection on how well you handle the instrument. Sometimes, or to put it more accurately - often you are one of few upright players in any given locale. You are in demand, and beggars can't be choosers.

Take myself as an example. I have no formal training or education in music. I was not even in band or chorus as a lad in the public education system. My upright adventure didn't begin until I was 30, and I am little more than a weekend warrior at most points. I can't sight read or sing. A real catch right?

In spite of these things, I still turn down offers all of the time. I could "work" as much as I want too. At one point I was in three bands at once a couple of years ago. It's not because I'm great, or I'm blowing anyone's doors off with my playing. It's because there aren't many of us, and I can show up on time, act professional, and I'm always prepared. Trust me, I hit my share of clams on any given night.

So what's my point? You could be a fine player after 8 months. You could also be barely treading water. Either of these scenarios can lead you to the good and plenty of gigs. I never confuse the demand for my services with my ability. The two are not directly proportional. It depends on the size of the pond.

 

[PauFerro]

With regards to getting gigs as an upright player, the amount of, and quality of are not necessarily a reflection on how well you handle the instrument. Sometimes, or to put it more accurately - often you are one of few upright players in any given locale. You are in demand, and beggars can't be choosers.

Take myself as an example. I have no formal training or education in music. I was not even in band or chorus as a lad in the public education system. My upright adventure didn't begin until I was 30, and I am little more than a weekend warrior at most points. I can't sight read or sing. A real catch right?

In spite of these things, I still turn down offers all of the time. I could "work" as much as I want too. At one point I was in three bands at once a couple of years ago. It's not because I'm great, or I'm blowing anyone's doors off with my playing. It's because there aren't many of us, and I can show up on time, act professional, and I'm always prepared. Trust me, I hit my share of clams on any given night.

So what's my point? You could be a fine player after 8 months. You could also be barely treading water. Either of these scenarios can lead you to the good and plenty of gigs. I never confuse the demand for my services with my ability. The two are not directly proportional.

I've accepted I'm not going to change your minds -- those of you who are firm that nothing short of a 3/4 size is acceptable. But I will say this -- I was told in this thread or another one on bass sizes that I wouldn't get gigs on upright if I played a 1/4 size. The evidence refutes that.

Local non-bass players simply don't care about the size of the instrument. All they care about is tone and the musicianship. Not one of them objected so far -- the only concern one guy had was that other upright players might not accept me. That seems glaringly true for some of the people here, although it's not unanimous judging by some of the supportive Likes I've gotten when I've championed the 1/4 size upright.

The other thing -- I have a guy who subs for me and plays upright. He told me he has two uprights. The first is a 3/4 and the other is "a lot smaller". He couldn't tell me the size, but he said he got tired of lugging the big one around and has moved onto either a 1/2 size or a 1/4 size. That really surprised me as he's at the top of the scene.

Regarding supply and demand, we have a lot of good upright players in this town. I don't claim to be at the top of the scene (by a long, long, long, long shot), but I'm competent enough to play jazz standards gigs as needed on the 1/4 size. And to take lower register solos.

So, the gigs I've been getting haven't been solely due to me being the only cat in town who can barely plunk out roots and fifths -- the level I play at is sufficient to do paid, corporate work with repeat bookings. And when there is some choice on the scene. I have a way to go, a long way -- upper register, bowing, a certain degree of speed, but overall, progress has been rapid to the point no one is complaining. The other musicians actually encourage me to bring the upright to our gigs. "Make sure you bring the upright" they say. I had one situation where I had so much gear to carry I said I'd leave the upright at home. Our singer said 'then I'm willing to drive to your house to pick it up and bring it to the gig".

Your statement about publishing a book on playing in tune and sight-reading in 8 months strikes me as sincere, so I will assume that you weren't being sarcastic. I can sight read chords for jazz, and read notes as required for Real Book gigs because it's the same skill I developed over 20 years on electric bass. Only the fingering is different. And the other secret is using the 1/4 size bass so you are comfortable getting around on the instrument. That's the secret. No special book required. No big secret other than the very thing some of you are objecting to.

I took a lot of flak here regarding this decision, so I feel motivated to share the facts of the outcome. I do feel the 1/4 size is a great transition instrument. It overcomes the obstacles of size, string height and new muscle groups the 3/4 size requires. As Esperanza Spalding said, your body "rejects" the instrument at first. All I did was minimize the rejection so I could get started. For me, it was start on the 1/4 or don't start at all. My body rejected the 3/4 upright so badly at first. I could't bear to part with the $2000 for something I hated walking up to every time I tried it. Not so with the 1/4 size. Instant passion and joy. I couldn't put it down.

I will eventually move onto a bigger instrument if health and finances hold together. But I'm in no rush. For me, I forewent 2-10 years of playing at home and was able to jump into the paid gigging scene with this smaller instrument. The opportunity to play it live, with money on the table, and musicians expecting me to deliver good music was a wild incentive to practice. These incentives created extremely rapid progress that I'm very happy with.

What was interesting about it was this. When I got a few lessons from a teacher, I was sort of embarrassed what he would say about the 1/4 size when I showed up with it. He was surprisingly accepting and said he some people consider it a transition instrument. Then we moved on to playing it. No censure.

Further, I've been able to get really far along in understanding amplification, how to make my endpin stay in the exact same position every time I set it up, how to affix all the amplification gear to the instrument. I had to do a repair because of the way I was putting it on and off the stand, and I separated the back from the sides at the bottom. I got that fixed underwarranty even thought it was my fault. I learned something there. Repositioning the bridge at one point when I had to take off the strings, the pros and cons of CCB's and the quality brand I got, construction knowledge, how to coax sound out of it. And how to play in tune by using open strings where it fits, etcetera. Lots and lots of good knowledge.

So, I will always recommend the 1/4 size to anyone who wants to move from electric to upright and doesn't want to risk not making it past the entry barriers. If someone wants to straight to the 3/4 quarter size, then so be it. They have my full support.

 

[PauFerro]

I want to add something.

I ran into the same problem with the short scale electric bass years ago. I couldn't put down a 30" electric when I played it. Pick up a 34" scale and I hated it. There was nothing on the market that was of decent quality except the Fender Mustang, which had limited pickup config. Every luthier I spoke to discouraged me from having one made. "The Low E won't vibrate enough". I couldn't believe the negativity toward a short electric bass.

Now we have a major proliferation of short scale electric basses from the cheapies at rondomusic.com to the boutique Rob Allens and lots in between. I hope the day will come when smaller sized uprights are given more credence than they currently do, but it will take time. Nonetheless, I see the merits of longer electric and upright basses. And again, expect to move up in size for greater natural resonance on the upright. But what I have for now is working.

 

[bobsax]

Hey PauFerro
Seriously , put up some video. I'm sure you sound fine. Don't try and impress anybody. That bass community needs some examples of the 1/4 being played with a pickup by an adult.
This is the only example out there and this guy is doing the classical thing

 

[Jay Corwin]

So, I will always recommend the 1/4 size to anyone who wants to move from electric to upright and doesn't want to risk not making it past the entry barriers.

I'm curious if you would expand on this statement. Like I said earlier, the term barrier implies that there are obstacles to the introductory player that will inherently stop their progress. It's just my experience, but I found no such barriers on my journey when starting with a 3/4. It's fair to note that I'm a large man though.

 

[damonsmith]

You have not "proved" anything. Unlike the bass guitar you are up against a few centuries of tradition and wisdom. Making claims on the internet is just that.
I STILL think you are going to find you are waiting a lot of time and money trying to find work-arounds in the end. There is no substitute for putting in the time practicing with the bow.
Video that that shows otherwise would be great!

 

[PauFerro]

Hey PauFerro
Seriously , put up some video. I'm sure you sound fine. Don't try and impress anybody. That bass community needs some examples of the 1/4 being played with a pickup by an adult.
This is the only example out there and this guy is doing the classical thing

No risk of me impressing anyone. You'll just get someone holding down the low end and maybe taking a lower register solo. I have plans for some video with two groups I started so when that is done I'll put it up there. I'm a bit concerned about doing it as, rightly or wrongly, I feel there isn't a completely open set of minds about the idea, and that could lead to biased opinion. But I will do something when I get a chance. I do have an Oral Defense for a thesis I have to present (been working on it for 7 years now and a whack of gigs) but I will try to get something decent for others to see.

I'm curious if you would expand on this statement. Like I said earlier, the term barrier implies that there are obstacles to the introductory player that will inherently stop their progress. It's just my experience, but I found no such barriers on my journey when starting with a 3/4. It's fair to note that I'm a large man though.

I am very small, and also obese right now. It causes problems with reaching the instrument, feeling overwhelmed by its size, and I felt like I'd just had a stroke and was learning to play again when I touched the 3/4 size. It was way better on the 1/4 size. Esperanza Spalding seemed to imply that she experienced the same thing at first. And I repeat -- I couldn't even consider dropping $2000 on a 3'/4 when hated the thing every time I walked up to it.

I want to add -- part of my reasoning was feedback here. Check this thread, a couple guys said there was a strong risk I wouldn't make it through the learning period. I believed them So, although it seems to tick people off that I didn't take all their advice, their advice was a major factor in me making the less risky, 1/4 size choice.

 

[bobsax]

Pau...Are you using bass guitar fingerings (no ring finger)? Is your fingerboard about the size of a fretless bass guitar?
FYI
There is a good argument to be made for a bass that can be played sitting in a normal sized chair.
Many guys have back issues that makes it uncomfortable to play standing and a bar stool isn't always as comfortable as a good "sitting"chair . I was looking for a small bass that would work well with acoustic guitars. The 1/4 size basses I tried just didn't have a good sound and for the cost of getting one to sound good I could just get a used Czech-ez. Which is what I did. Also a HUGE issue is the fingerboard is smaller and that messes with your muscle memory.
As for sitting in a normal chair I find I can put in a lot more hours of practice that way and it all transfers to the full size bass when I get out and gig.