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Double Bass 1/4 Size upright, any fullsize people playing them?
- Thread starter paddydukes
- Start date
Fingerboard size is way bigger than a fretless bass, and of course has a very curved radius, unlike an electric bass. In terms of fingering, I started out using 3/4 size fingering with no ring finger. I think I still use that in the lower frets. But I find that when I get to the neck joint area, it's too small to use that fingering, so I revert to electric bass fingering at that point. I do what is most expeditious in getting the sound and agility I need.
I would need to go back and analyze what I'm doing on fingering again. I was really conscious of upright fingering in the beginning and did scales with a book I ordered off Amazon. And with the teacher I hired. When I got into gigging situations where musicians threw real book tunes at me I'd never read before, I had to do whatever was necessary to pull off the tunes. So I stopped making conscious fingering decisions and did whatever I needed in order to burn as I sight-read the chords. I am not sure where that led as it's all unconscious now.
Again, my goal was to gig. Gigs, gigs, gigs, and more gigs. I did whatever was necessary to make that happen. The fact that the musicians rallied and encouraged me to keep using it, even insisting on it for certain gigs, means that whatever I did, worked.
Ok I'll back track a step. That sounds like a logical reason to seek and instrument that works for you physically. However I'm not a qualified instructor, so I'm not one to speak on health issues and body type versus instrument selection.
He sounds like he's playing the cello. Maybe a bit lower. That's the problem with piccolo basses, for example. I play one in a group while the keyboard player does left hand bass. You have to make sure you play it in a way that makes its unique qualities stand out or people say "just get a guitar" or in this case "just get a cello". For the piccolo bass it means playing it with your right hand finger and not a pick.
It doesn't apply to the 1/4 size though, as the one I have sounds like a double bass.
The truth of the matter is that you are working with extremely common misconceptions about the instrument and going down rabbit holes that any of who have been around for a few decades have seen people go down before.
Like I said, you are up against a lot of years of common wisdom with no concrete proof on your end.
To add in your bold statements about intonation things are not adding up in your favor. I don't know anyone who would claim to be able to sight read in tune in all keys. Most of the greatest bassists alive will tell you playing in tune is a day to day fight - even after decades of traditional work.
It is cool that you are enjoying yourself, but reinventing the wheel at a late age is not a recommended route. The actual work of getting a basic handle on the instrument is not going anywhere.
Like I said, you are up against a lot of years of common wisdom with no concrete proof on your end.
To add in your bold statements about intonation things are not adding up in your favor. I don't know anyone who would claim to be able to sight read in tune in all keys. Most of the greatest bassists alive will tell you playing in tune is a day to day fight - even after decades of traditional work.
It is cool that you are enjoying yourself, but reinventing the wheel at a late age is not a recommended route. The actual work of getting a basic handle on the instrument is not going anywhere.
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I found myself mulling your experience over while out for my run and... I think it's really good that you're satisfied and that the 1/4 size worked out for you. I feel compelled to point out that you have a very unique set of criteria - physical size, shape, age, plus many common criteria, lack of time, finding the DB physically challenging, motivating yourself to practice, and a different goal than many folks - to gig more. All that said, I think it's great that you documented your experience so if someone else comes along with similar criteria and goals, they have at least one positive example. For people with different criteria and goals, your experience probably won't help them, but they might find this thread educational. Kudos!
I mean, yes, but: words on the internet are not documentation. There is no reason to believe it is working - which at this point is the most important information for anyone with similar criteria. I strongly suspect it is just a thinner sounding version of what any of us coming from bass guitar sounded like after a few months...
Thanks, for me it's progress to see some acknowledgement that the 1/4 size can be the right decision for certain people -- even a narrow group of people with unique criteria. My heart told me it was the right thing and I guess decades on the planet, at a cost of thousands of dollars on matters of things "fitting me and my lifestyle" has convinced me to listen to my heart. I am glad I did this time.
But the forum did a lot to inform my decision-making on other matters I won't rehash here.
Nor is there any reason to believe it is not working . . . for this person's goals and purposes. But a lot of what passes for documentation these days is just words on the internet, of which this thread is an example. I doubt there are many peer-reviewed scholarly articles which have been published on this subject.
I am 186cm and can play a 3/4 bass or even a 4/4 bass without problems. I own a 3/4 Stagg Upright and have access to a 3/4 bass plywood, but when not playing at home, prefer to use my 1/4 bass (very good quality).A 1/4 bass sounds like a real bass and is loud enough for small accoustic settings, an accoustic bass guitar is not. I like the accoustic sound of my 1/4 better then the sound of the 3/4, even the E string or a C string with quint tuning is no problem and loud enough. If I have to play with a bigger group, I just amplify and have less problems with feedback as with a 3/4. Usually I play seated and can use a normal stool with the 1/4.
I am playing double bass for about 30 years and can handle a full bass without problem (have played them often enough, did learn double bass on an 3/4). But for the small acoustic group I mostly play with,I much prefer my 1/4 bass. It has a beautiful bass tone and is loud enough for that setting,the ease of transportation is a big plus. Even if I play the small bass I consider myself a real bass player. If I play with amplification, I prefer an EUB because of feedback,same reason the electric bass guitar is used in most really loud groups. If I would play in an huge orchestra, I would play a fullsize 5 string bass. But orchestras usually don't have to transport the instruments, they stay in place...
My reason for choosing a 1/4 bass as my main instrument was the sound of this particular instrument and the possibility to drive in one car together with my wife (plays mandola in our group) and my daughter (plays mandolin). Before my daughter joined our group, I played a 3/4 size bass, that I have sold. My 1/4 is almost as loud then the 3/4 I had before and I don't have to pack a high stool to play seated.
==> Choosing the bass that fits your needs and has the sound you like is more important then choosing a big bass to be a "real bass player" !!! Playing a 1/4 bass with good tone (good sounding small basses are usually more expensive then good sounding bigger basses) and good setup is much more satisfying then playing a huge bass with lousy tone and crappy setup.
My reason for choosing a 1/4 bass as my main instrument was the sound of this particular instrument and the possibility to drive in one car together with my wife (plays mandola in our group) and my daughter (plays mandolin). Before my daughter joined our group, I played a 3/4 size bass, that I have sold. My 1/4 is almost as loud then the 3/4 I had before and I don't have to pack a high stool to play seated.
==> Choosing the bass that fits your needs and has the sound you like is more important then choosing a big bass to be a "real bass player" !!! Playing a 1/4 bass with good tone (good sounding small basses are usually more expensive then good sounding bigger basses) and good setup is much more satisfying then playing a huge bass with lousy tone and crappy setup.
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It isn't really the choice to get small bass. Nobody really cares about that. It is that all the reasons are riddled with misconceptions about the instrument.
I have yet to meet a single person over middle school age who actually had hands that were too small to play 124 fingering on a standard bass.
I won't say that does not mean such people don't exist. However, in this case, If you go through the thread and read the posts by the OP it is just one misunderstanding and misconception about the instrument after another. Therefore, the self diagnosis that a 1/4 is the only solution just is not likely to be true.
Any experienced player or teacher will find flaws in most of the posts by this person. People playing smaller basses for ease of transport and storage has been going on for decades. That is not what is going on here.
I have yet to meet a single person over middle school age who actually had hands that were too small to play 124 fingering on a standard bass.
I won't say that does not mean such people don't exist. However, in this case, If you go through the thread and read the posts by the OP it is just one misunderstanding and misconception about the instrument after another. Therefore, the self diagnosis that a 1/4 is the only solution just is not likely to be true.
Any experienced player or teacher will find flaws in most of the posts by this person. People playing smaller basses for ease of transport and storage has been going on for decades. That is not what is going on here.
Well if we can all concede that the 1/4 size was the perfect instrument for Pau, and it may be - it's still almost impossible for any experienced double bassist trying to have an intelligent discussion on this matter to look past claims of perfect intonation and sight reading in all keys after 8 months of part timing. That is why I suggested Pau write a book on his method. Because if this is fact, and not just internet hyperbole - well then it would be revolutionary progress to learning jazz on the instrument on any scale. There are countless instances of top level professionals who openly admit to the challenges of playing in tune in interviews and workshops, and I know I'm not saying anything here that most of us haven't already heard before. Just YouTube John Patitucci, Ron Carter, Rufus Reid, etc. I don't think these challenges would be minimized just because the instrument scale is smaller.
These type of claims are where some users here take issue. Even if you look passed some of the non-traditional approach stuff Pau has discussed, it's still tough to look passed the intonation claims knowing how hard all of us work on those things. I'm a part timer myself, so maybe my experience isn't as relevant as the pros here. However I can tell you that after 8 months....oh boy was I still bumbling through a lot.
Keeping those things in mind, it's not a good bit of advice for someone to stumble on (especially if it's a bit of stretched truth). Like hey man, just go grab a 1/4 size, play BG fingering, and you'll be blowing like Ray Brown in 8 months.....doubtful.
I'm bowing out of this thread on that note. See you guys back in the amp forum.
These type of claims are where some users here take issue. Even if you look passed some of the non-traditional approach stuff Pau has discussed, it's still tough to look passed the intonation claims knowing how hard all of us work on those things. I'm a part timer myself, so maybe my experience isn't as relevant as the pros here. However I can tell you that after 8 months....oh boy was I still bumbling through a lot.
Keeping those things in mind, it's not a good bit of advice for someone to stumble on (especially if it's a bit of stretched truth). Like hey man, just go grab a 1/4 size, play BG fingering, and you'll be blowing like Ray Brown in 8 months.....doubtful.
I'm bowing out of this thread on that note. See you guys back in the amp forum.
Even though you're bowing out, I have to say this --
Oh come on @sevenyearsdown -- I made no claims to "perfect intonation". I'm not claiming I'm Ray Brown. I said it a million times that I'm just a local guy, can't play the upper register, but I CAN sight read Real book charts for the purpose of walking and bossa. I do that regularly now. But only because I came to the instrument with 25 years of chart reading on electric bass. You essentially took my comments about what I've done and then made a straw man argument out of them.
I've seen this over and over again on this forum -- the "He thinks he's hot stuff" thread -- meant to tear down anyone who even sounds like he thinks he's made an achievement. I'm not virtuouso. Believe me. Even on electric I had a good friend say "You're not a bad bass player". I know my limits. it took me 15 years of frustration and buying improv books that sat on the bonepile due to their uselessness to me before I learned to improvise freely over most chord changes.
Regarding intonation , I found the flat keys were more challenging than the other non-flat keys due to the inavailability of open string tones. And that took work. I kept playing tunes with emphasized flat keys in bossa and walking. Intonation -- it's a lifelong struggle, and I do't always get it right. But again -- I'm thinking in practical terms -- sure there are intonation problems here and there like with most everyone, but they are not sufficient to exclude me from gigs, garner complaints from clients, or stifle repeat bookings. Where previously you seemed to give some credence to what I said, now you seem to be hopping on the "hyperbole bandwagon". I am NOT Ray Brown or even close to it. But I am gigging a lot on upright after only purchasing one 9 months ago.
I think you need to temper what you think my claims were by 50-60% as you're not seeing clearly into the situation and what I'm claiming.
I'm disappointed that you appear to have taken the low road, frankly.
Again, I lean on the impressions of the other musicians who hire me for their gigs, ask me to bring my upright to gigs, the clients who are paying us and giving us 4.5 - 5 star online reviews, and telling us they want us back next year. I have heard several of my band mates tell me they "like the sound of it".
It can't be all that bad with that kind of feedback. I only posted the history of the last 9 months here when I hit a new level -- our singer asked me to be her upright bass side man in her theatre show where we just show up, do a 1.5 hour show and get paid double the corporate rates we get in our town. You don't get opportunities like that without having sufficient musicality -- not virtuoso, but at least enough credibility she wants to hire me to back her up.
With all the flak I got here, I had to share that to potentially open people's minds a bit. I do respect the hours many of you have put into the instrument, but I will say this at great personal risk -- I think some of you need to be more open-minded about what is possible, and what is not possible on a smaller instrument. It is possible to gig with it, and quickly too. You don't have to sit at home for 2-10 years to get out and perform credibly if you pick a smaller instrument. Focus heavily on the lower register to get competent in the money positions. You DO need a quality instrument, as you guys said. It has proven to be a phenomenal transition instrument for developing the new muscle groups, being gig-ready quickly, and making it way easier to get to a 1/2 or maybe 3/4 size.
I keep saying -- I do hope to move up in size as yes, bigger instruments are louder. I find all the upright basses seem to have their own particular tone. We have an instrument shop in my town, and I've played about 13 different instruments of different sizes, and the tone seems to vary widely between them. However, I can't say unequivocally that larger sized basses sound a million times better.
I have questions:
a) how many of you have actually played a QUALITY 1/4 size upright?
b) How many of you have played it repeatedly in a paid, corporate gig, live band situation, with competent players and gotten their reactions, and client reactions?? If so, what was their reaction?
c) Mine is an Ametto VB-100 (link below). What was the brand you played? And what was your experience? I would like to know.
Here is a link to my bass:
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I completely agree with this paragraph, and IMO, most of the discussion is between artists who aspire to master the double bass and a weekend warrior who simply wants to get more and better gigs and those are completely different goals. And not necessarily less worthwhile.
I don't know a lot about free jazz but what I do know is that practitioners who take it seriously aim to truly master everything about their instrument, a never ending endeavour, they move way past the sounds and tone of jazz and classical music into being able to respond, in the moment, with appropriate musical "noise" based on their unrelenting persistence of the sounds their instrument can produce.
Contrast that with a fellow who simply wants to get more local jazz gigs in a relatively small market. If he has good time, he's already 95% there, if he's roughly in tune, 2% more, and if he can play solos that no one winces at, that's pretty much as good as it gets, myself included, even though my aspirations are higher, I'm not doing any better, even though I've been playing for 8 years now. I'd venture that my solos are probably more "sophisticated" and more "interesting" to another jazzer, but, c'mon, it's a sillily small distinction if we're playing for the general public.
Perhaps, the sadest thing about this thread for us "keepers of the flame" is that since the OP hasn't had regular competent instrument instruction, he doesn't realize what he's missing. He doesn't fully appreciate just how good the DB can sound when played by a very well developed player. But... everyone's different. I was never satisfied playing single octave basslines and solos, but the OP is, and I think that's awesome! He's learned to play within his means, I wish I could! and he's playing in a way that's gratifying for him, and the other musicians he plays with; We should all be so lucky!
The next step for the OP, IMO, is, get back with a good jazz DB teacher and start to recognize what they're doing that you're not. The difference will probably be subtle for some, but striking to you. Once you start, it may be the kick you need to set your goals higher.
I agree with most of what you said here Tom. I will say that I'm not satisfied with my playing though. The upper register, the unconquered frontier, bugs the heck out of me as something I will have to learn, and it hurts physically to play there. Every time I see someone like Linda Oh, or even a local guy burning up that register, it bothers me. Being strong on the instrument is in fact a lifelong endeavor -- I make no claims to having "made it". Harmonically, when soloing, I use pentatonic scales and the modes, with color tones thrown in when they are distinctive in the harmonic structure of the song. I would love to expand my horizons.
At the same time, I am the business motor of 4 different bands now. That is time consuming. Disabled son, full time job, going to school for an advanced degree. President of a small but busy non-profit. I am responsible for all the promotion when we have gigs, organizing the groups, rehearsals, set lists, getting people music when necessary. And I am constantly managing the supply of musicians in our town by training new players at a monthly community event. To keep gigs flowing, I am constantly referring gigs to other band's and working on collaborative events. All that takes away from the music. I also have a commitment to writing music on the piccolo bass.
I do hope to disseminate some video of what this controversial 1/4 size is capable of, when I get a chance.
But I appreciate Tom's comments above which at least take my experience at face value.
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I want to also express my agreement with Tom's statement above. I was on the phone this evening with a really good guitarist I play with. Shared my experience here. I also shared my perception that the reason there is so much push back here is due to the conflict between the artist mentality, and the entrepreneur/working man philosophy. Exactly what Tom has indicated here.
I have the latter, others carry the artist mentality. Both has its place. Artists do create beautiful music, and they care deeply about their craft. Entrepreneurs like me want a certain level of quality, but that is balanced with a desire to gig, perform, and in my case, fuel my motivation to rehearse on what seemed like the biggest, most painful albatross of an instrument I ever approached. When I look over the last 9 months, I'm thrilled that I've brought in hundreds of dollars with gigs that are truly jazz gigs with the upright in place. I'm thrilled with the expanded opportunities from other musicians I respect who invited me to be their side man, or asked me to bring the upright to their gigs. To me, that is as rewarding as being able to play Blue Bossa quickly with largely good intonation and lower register solos.
While I come down firmly on the "artist" side of things in my own performance and recordings, I have been posting in the thread from the perspective of being a longtime bass teacher of many weekend warriors.
iIWe seem to have reached a fork in the road, which in one direction veers toward skills, technique (i. e., get an instructor) and in the other, instrument preference. I do not see these as being mutually exclusive. With proper, competent instruction, one learns more tricks of the trade. But if one can jazz solo across multiple octaves on a 4/4 size DB, one also should be able to do so on a fretless P bass.
Issues of income aside, instrument preference is largely utilitarian: we select the tool the job demands (that is, if we have more than one bass). If I am playing naked for a dance (and I have), I am bringing a 3/4 DB and using a three-finger pizz on it. For street busking I probably would select a half-size, since that would be a good volume match with the other instruments in terms of "throw." For intimate, sit-down gigs, probably a 1/4. But none of these choices has anything to do with what I, as the player, can do on them.
Skills, or the lack thereof, transfer across a multitude of instruments.
I suspect there is more smoke to this discussion than there are actual flames.
Issues of income aside, instrument preference is largely utilitarian: we select the tool the job demands (that is, if we have more than one bass). If I am playing naked for a dance (and I have), I am bringing a 3/4 DB and using a three-finger pizz on it. For street busking I probably would select a half-size, since that would be a good volume match with the other instruments in terms of "throw." For intimate, sit-down gigs, probably a 1/4. But none of these choices has anything to do with what I, as the player, can do on them.
Skills, or the lack thereof, transfer across a multitude of instruments.
I suspect there is more smoke to this discussion than there are actual flames.
