1200 Watt Mesa - Bout Time!

[KJung]

Look, the GB "looks" real similar, kinda like and Audi and volkswagon or a Chevy and a Buick in some models. Any report on the weight? No one's answered that request.

Where's the innovation here, an 8 button pedal? They're on off stuff, not like a line 6 or some other bass effects floor pedal system.

I think what would be "interesting" would be for a high quality amp manufacturer like Genz Benz or Mesa to collaborate with an effects company to not only build a 1200 watt down to 2 ohm head that has a pretty complete effects selection with a footswitch selecting the effect, volume, amount of wah, etc. but that it also weighs under 20 pounds. Then I'd like them to charge $1500 or less streetprice.

I'm asking too much here. I"ll tell ya what....I'll bet one of the other amp makers (Carvin, Beringer, Kustom, Laney, maybe even Hartke) will see the "value" of putting the above package together.

The way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised to see Acoustic Image do something like this...they already have a reverb 1000 watts at two ohms and a 4 pound amp. Why not add another 5 pounds, make it into a full two rack size, and add digital and other effects and a pedal board?

Right now, is SWR the only mainstream amp maker that's got more than just an overdrive or reverb in a 750 watt integrated amp head (from what I've read...liberal wattage interpretation, IOW...softer than wattage rating seems to indicate

To me, an amp's gotta have more than just a Name people recognize, quality or not, on it for a 1200 watt head weighing likely 40 pounds or more (hey if I'm wrong, I'll be one of the first to shut up, maybe even considering buying one when I got the moolah, OK?) to be attractive. Gotta weigh less and gotta have useable digital effects, easily dialed in.

The reason that I suggested I'd get slammed Tom B. was that when I make any comment questioning the value or versatility of tone of certain NYC 200 watt tube amps costing $2800, you and your Sadowsky bigots stone me like I'm a mental case. What I get is the "how can you criticize (my suggesting anything negative or thought provoking from a budgetary standpoint) this piece of equipment when you haven't played it?"

Same way I've never played a GB in any form or the Mesa v12and yet, I have an opinion. People love their Mesa amps and those geeemogargantuan cabinets. Hey they're not for me or any old geezer who's shleps his own. I've tried out several Mesa's, liked their 400+, didn't have any affinity towards any of their valvestate? amps///pulse 600 or their walkabouts. The Walkabouts at least had some decent power vs weight...tonewise, I need my eq and maximizer and that would likely make it sound plenty good enough.

Bringing out another 1200 watt head without adding a significant lighter weight chassis, combined with as good as Mesa's other heads tone, and maybe the gravy on this cake is the addition (or choice) of adding a complete selection of useable digital tone, effects, added eq, compressor maybe, maybe noise reduction for us single coil non humbucking guys, just to me isn't much more than been there done that. Now 2or three years ago, this would be REALLY BIG NEWS, but Mesa's already come out with the 8 function medal on the Pulse 600 I believe or the simulstate amp whatever the name of it was, and adding a few more output watts and combining it with already 4 year old pedal on off switch technology sounds like a company trying to keep up with the Jone's, not be innovative and ahead of the curve.

The reason I don't complain about speaker cabinets as much anymore is there has been a ton of innovation, different designs, use of lighter weight materials, speakers and more to make the gigging experience, especially for us baby boomers who are still plugging away at our age more enjoyable. (EA, Accugroove, Epifani, Bergie's new amp in the cab, Schroeder lights, GB, Ampeg, even GK). But when I need a 40-50+ pound head with 1000-1200+ watts to power one or a couple of 30-35 pound speaker cabinets, there's more and more wrong with this equation.

I would suggest that those of you going woooeeee on this head play through and use a woods or walkabout or the new GB lightweight, a Portabass, or an EA iamp 800, or an AI Focus III for a while and see just how little impact the announcement of another heavy 1200 all solid state or hybrid amp plays on your GAS valve.

I'm sure it's a great amp for the right group of you'all, even some old farts my age. But after 9 months with my Focus I, not the 1000 watter at 2 ohms, but the 600 watter at 4, all of a sudden these announcements, without the lesser weight without some sort of effects just show some company trying to keep up with the Jones's.

Lkaye

I have no idea what you are saying in the above. You obviously are not familiar with a lot of what is going on in the industry, and even said above that you haven't tried the stuff the the thread originator and other posters are talking about.

Regarding the GB... you obviously didn't do your homework before posting.... there are several innovations in this amp regarding the way it handles different speaker loads, etc. It's also an improved execution of the tube/SS preamp design, and has lot's of mixing options that, while not totally innovative, at least seem to be a significant step forward from other executions like the M2000. They've also come out with a very cool two space version called the 750... same front end, a little less power, smaller lighter... very nice. The pricepoint on these amps is amazing also.

Regarding Mesa's high power amp, I think it's a great idea... those players that are playing gigs that require a very loud, grindy rock tone could benefit from a higher power head that can put massive power into a 4ohm load vs. the BB750, that only generated its full power into a 2ohm load.

Also, as one who owns a Focus and Walter Woods along with a couple of other amps, there is NO comparison to the low end projection and power of a large toriodal transformer versus the WW and especially the Focus.

I don't get your rant at all?

 

[uglycicles]

Anyone have an idea on what this will cost?

 

[Larry Kaye]

The "in" thing is weight vs volume vs tone. The head makers just haven't "gotten it" yet. The world doesn't need two more 1200 watt bass heads unless they've figured out a way to be lighter or have digital effects built in. There....that's my opinionated self trying to summarize.

Ken, I agee wholeheartedly that a heavier transformer will likely give you more whatever it is that you don't get in the Focus or WW. I don't need any more bottom end than I got. My back is more important than that extra "whatever it is" that the torroidal tformer gave me. It's already hard enough to manage low end in the clubs I play. The switching and ohmage stuff also means little to nothing to most players who don't use stuff or if they do usually don't mess with that kinda stuff on stage.

If you do, great....I don't have the energy nor time to be messing with double channels and footswitches, and passive mids and active mids, kinda like the guy who couldn't get his act together with the Thunderfunk and the 21012 Schroeder a couple of weeks ago. So to each his own.

The thing we're not connecting on here is I'm talking about marketing, not whether you like or don't like the tone of this head or whether the technology innovations do or don't necessarily make it sound different or better/worse than another head, or whether it's 1200 watts are real or under or overestimated. I'm talking about what people today are wanting....

Another 1200 watt 40 pound $1800 likely amp I don't feel is where the market is needing expansion. It's the 750 watt area with 900-1000 2 ohm capability, (like the GBE 750) lighterweight chassis (preferrably 20 pounds or less) and digital effects built in with a pedal board controller. All for under $1500 retail.

I think that would be a much bigger seller with a lot more to offer the general bass public than another 1200 watt amp no matter what the weight of transformer or other more "techie" attributes. I'll also "bet" that as digital amps progress, they will more and more sound like the heavier torroidals that you mentioned given time. In the meantime, me and my 57 year old back will have to settle for a 4 pound amp that everyone who's heard has complimented me on how loud, clear, true, punchy, hearable, and full sounding....you name it the rig + bass together are.

Ranting maniac signs off.


Lkaye

 

[tombowlus]

The world doesn't need two more 1200 watt bass heads unless they've figured out a way to be lighter or have digital effects built in.

I understand that you don't have an interest in such a product, but to say that "the world" doesn't need it just might be reaching a tad bit too far. I'm not trying to bash you, Larry. I'm just pointing out - as you have often repeated yourself - that people are entitled to their own opinions, and if someone does want/need a 1,200w amp that does not have digital effects and which does employ heavier components, then I, for one, would respect their opinion.

Same goes if that person says that that they are not interested in such a beast (as it sounds like you are not).

Maybe you are saying this as well, but that whole "the world doesn't need this" bit might give somebody the impression (rightfully or wrongfully) that you are, in fact, dissing people with an interest in such a product. Again, based upon your prior comments, I would think that you would support people with diverse opinions, but I just wanted to note that some of your comments, above, might lead someone to infer otherwise.

Tom.

 

[ironreverend]

I noticed that almost no one commented on the Eden 1205, I am having a real hard time deciding between these two beasts. I presently have an Eden rig and I love it, but I rented a Big Block 750 a couple weeks ago, ran it at 2 ohms through my Eden 410 and 210 cabs and it seemed to really fit what I need, more so than the Eden ( I love my Eden, don't get me wrong, but it's not gritty enough, but maybe the 1205 could compare to the Mesa, I don't know). My only complaint was that it only had one channel, and days later they announce the V12!! I am seriously considering trading in the Eden gear for Mesa, and I really want this V12, with either a 610 or a 412 cab. The unreal headroom and switchable channels and dedicated overdrives for each make this a perfect rig for me. I wish I could A/B the Eden 1205 with an Eden 610 and a V12 with a Mesa 610...

 

[Larry Kaye]

I assure you, I am all for anyone buying anything they want to or can afford. I also am "for" freedom of speech and stating what I think which in this case is only a small minority of the bass playing world is ever going to buy a 1200 watt bass head....period....let alone a "high end" Mesa.

I'm just suggesting, from a pure marketing point of view, that what the "world" wants today (this could change with technology improvements and discoveries) is not another 1200 watt mono block bass head. Doesn't mean that a limited number won't go and buy one, or I wouldn't want to hear what it sounds like over at your house sometime!!!

I've owned a 1200 watt amp Tom. The consequent rack weight made that head a quite unpleasant shlepp for me. Doesn't mean if you're in better shape, or big and strong, or ya got roadies shlepping for ya or someone's younger or even an old fart like me who's back and joints can handle a 50-60 pound rack, that I'm ditzing? you or other players by saying what I'm saying.

BUT, from a pure marketing point of view, if one of the name brand companies want to make some high %age marketshare gains, I don't feel they're gonna do it introducing another fairly expensive, heavier, torroidal or not,solid state, hybrid, or tube head especially if it's gonna be in the neighborhood of this Mesa or your SA200 Sadowsky. Granted it's not their plan to sell to the masses, but how about to more than a priveledged few Tom?

I think they'll make a killing if they can come up with a 750+ watts at 4 and 1000+ a 2 ohm head, that's under 20 pounds, AND hopefully has useful digital and other? effects that can be pedalboard operated. A two space unit....AI adds two sets of multiple effects to it's Focus III and keeps it's price under 1200, my OPINION is they'll sell as many as they can make.

Now if Mesa, Aguilar, Epifani, EA, Peavey, I don't care, Hartke, start making what the masses want, like Jorg Schroeder did with his Light Speaker cab line, (light, loud, low freq response, efficient, competitive pricing..not the lowest by far but not the highest either), I think they're gonna make a killing.

This is not putting down those people who have the freedom of choice to buy whatever the rock they want. It's just saying that in essance here's two more entries to the 1000+ wattage head market be them built by high quality manufacturers. This is equivalent of another big and expensive SUV on the market and the only things it offers are a new ignition switch and vibrating seats. Come on guys, is this what we want or do we want and demand higher powered amps that sound like the Mesa or Genz likely does, but weigh 20 pounds, and oh by the way has 8 to 12 lets say, footswitchable, useful effects some of which, not all, but at least one or two that EVERYONE can find a use for.

Is this putting down or dissing or ditzing the world. I don't think so. I don't think that supplying 1200 watts without weight reduction is any great achievement regardless of a speaker ohmage switch. It's just keeping up with the Jones's....doesn't matter whether it may or may not sound the best or worst (all subjective) than any other amp made or any previous Mesa or Genz or other head. It's just another high end SUV in an already low demand exclusive marketplace.

Lkaye

 

[SnoMan]

Why do we need amps at all?

Just buy a DI box.

Buy a small effects rack to go with it or some pedals.

Get a small combo.

Save your head and cab money and put it into a PA.




Lkaye...you seem to have a strong opinion on this matter, which is fine.....I'm just confused as to why?

 

[cheezewiz]

Hey Larry, remember the SWR Mo'Bass? OK, it wasn't light, but it was a high powered amp with digital effects, and it sucked. It didn't last long in the lineup. I for one, have NO interest in an amp with built in digital effects. If I wan't effects, I'll use 'em on the floor.

 

[cheezewiz]

I think they'll make a killing if they can come up with a 750+ watts at 4 and 1000+ a 2 ohm head, that's under 20 pounds, AND hopefully has useful digital and other? effects that can be pedalboard operated. A two space unit....AI adds two sets of multiple effects to it's Focus III and keeps it's price under 1200, my OPINION is they'll sell as many as they can make.

With the exception of the "digital effects", which I contend most people WOULD NOT want, you just described an EA Iamp 800.

 

[tombowlus]

Personally, I am glad that there are some products out there that are not made for the "masses."

Fortunately, it sounds like you have found some gear that you like. I have certainly found some that I like. And I think that if manufacturers want to give us yet more options, then this is a good thing for us, the players. I leave the marketing analysis to the manufactuers.

Tom.

 

[SnoMan]

I'd leave it to the marketing analysts myself





yeah...I'm a dork at heart

 

[Larry Kaye]

I dunno.....I don't use effects either....but I do use a more extensive graphic. We're a very stubborn group when it comes to trying extra things in the signal chain past a tuner and an outboard effect. I personally don't want to carry a couple of small footpedals around and have to worry about wall worts or batteries, or more cords shorting out or the movable parts wearing out. I freankly have enough trouble keeping tabs of my Korg bass tuner and when I do know where it is, how many times does that freakin battery end up being dead?

Why do I care? I think the original poster's thread title says it all.....v12 Mesa, it's about time...other makers have had 1000-1500 watt mono block amps out for over 5 years now.(GK, CArvin, Sunn 1200S / Fender others)(..so what's taking Mesa so long to come out with a competitive wattage, but hopefully add a much higher quality level.

Speaker makers are finally getting off their duffs and making stuff that a few years ago they said was impossible to make (high efficiency, high volume with low frequency response, AND lighter weight, AND responsibly competitive with current technology pricing.) Why are the head makers so far behind? Because we're not pushing them like we did the development of Neo magnet speakers.

To snowbassman...you take your WW's selling for close to $3K these days, then you have your EA iamp and your Ai focus III at around 1100, and that's all the higher powered lightweights....sorry, forgot the Ampeg 800 also, yes? but people feel, as digital class C? right, that they're missing something, maybe Ken Jung's more heavy duty transformer?

What my sunn 1200 S had great value were the extras like high and low compression and a 12 band graphic eq along with a second channel overdrive a deep , midcut, and bright switch and some other stuff. It also weighed around 38 pounds. Add the rest of my rackmount stuff and you got a 60+ in a small package shlepp that actually injured my right hand and permanently damaged my baby finger on my right hand!!!

Snobass, others, How about if the head had 1000 watts at 2 ohms and 750-800 at 4, had a nice overdrive unit, maybe selection of a couple standard choruses, a tuner, a 10 band graphic eq, compression and noise reduction for us unbalanced single coil folks, maybe a suboctave and/or an octave above, with effects blend, a direct box, sounded as good as any bigger transformer head, and weighed 15-18 pounds. Would that be attractive? This was close to the iamp, but was it too "expensive" or didn't it sound like how you owners wanted?

Believe it or not, the above description is almost if not entirely not available in one head. Let's keep the effects portion simple and let's not have it built by an amp or speaker cab company that's considered higher end. Let's see if Peavey can put this together or Hartke and let's see if all of sudden with the higher wattage and solid extra's if we can get more people to upgrade.

Since I got my Focus, I've had no interest in anything new. I'm too young still, even at 57 to marry and have a permanently relationship with any piece of musicial instrument equipment.

Lkaye

 

[cheezewiz]

I dunno.....I don't use effects either....but I do use a more extensive graphic. We're a very stubborn group when it comes to trying extra things in the signal chain past a tuner and an outboard effect. I personally don't want to carry a couple of small footpedals around and have to worry about wall worts or batteries, or more cords shorting out or the movable parts wearing out. I freankly have enough trouble keeping tabs of my Korg bass tuner and when I do know where it is, how many times does that freakin battery end up being dead?

Why do I care? I think the original poster's thread title says it all.....v12 Mesa, it's about time...other makers have had 1000-1500 watt mono block amps out for over 5 years now.(GK, CArvin, Sunn 1200S / Fender others)(..so what's taking Mesa so long to come out with a competitive wattage, but hopefully add a much higher quality level.

Speaker makers are finally getting off their duffs and making stuff that a few years ago they said was impossible to make (high efficiency, high volume with low frequency response, AND lighter weight, AND responsibly competitive with current technology pricing.) Why are the head makers so far behind? Because we're not pushing them like we did the development of Neo magnet speakers.

To snowbassman...you take your WW's selling for close to $3K these days, then you have your EA iamp and your Ai focus III at around 1100, and that's all the higher powered lightweights....sorry, forgot the Ampeg 800 also, yes? but people feel, as digital class C? right, that they're missing something, maybe Ken Jung's more heavy duty transformer?

What my sunn 1200 S had great value were the extras like high and low compression and a 12 band graphic eq along with a second channel overdrive a deep , midcut, and bright switch and some other stuff. It also weighed around 38 pounds. Add the rest of my rackmount stuff and you got a 60+ in a small package shlepp that actually injured my right hand and permanently damaged my baby finger on my right hand!!!

Snobass, others, How about if the head had 1000 watts at 2 ohms and 750-800 at 4, had a nice overdrive unit, maybe selection of a couple standard choruses, a tuner, a 10 band graphic eq, compression and noise reduction for us unbalanced single coil folks, maybe a suboctave and/or an octave above, with effects blend, a direct box, sounded as good as any bigger transformer head, and weighed 15-18 pounds. Would that be attractive? This was close to the iamp, but was it too "expensive" or didn't it sound like how you owners wanted?

Believe it or not, the above description is almost if not entirely not available in one head. Let's keep the effects portion simple and let's not have it built by an amp or speaker cab company that's considered higher end. Let's see if Peavey can put this together or Hartke and let's see if all of sudden with the higher wattage and solid extra's if we can get more people to upgrade.

Since I got my Focus, I've had no interest in anything new. I'm too young still, even at 57 to marry and have a permanently relationship with any piece of musicial instrument equipment.

Lkaye

I think the problem with adding effects to a head, is different people have different tastes when it comes to effects. Say someone puts out the head you are talking about, but 50 percen t of the bass players who would be interested hate the sound of the included overdrive. You just cut potential sales in half. Leaving the effects to pedalboards or rack units, eliminates that problem. I think that ended up being the problem with the Mo'bass. Most people didn't like the sound of the effects.

If someone WERE to come out with the amp you describe, my money would be on Peavey. They already have their 2X10 modeling amp combo, or the same available as a head. Upping the power in the head would accomplish what you were asking, with the possible exception of weight.

 

[Smallequestrian]

The thing we're not connecting on here is I'm talking about marketing, not whether you like or don't like the tone of this head or whether the technology innovations do or don't necessarily make it sound different or better/worse than another head, or whether it's 1200 watts are real or under or overestimated. I'm talking about what people today are wanting....

You aren't talking about marketing though. If you want to talk about marketing you are missing several factors. There are many people who this amp appeals too for other reasons. For Mesa, putting out an amp that has no real "innovation" as you say, may not make your pants tighter, but it is a marketing decision based on demand. Since I think we can assume Mesa is a profitable company, I have faith that if they didn't think there was money to be made by releasing this product, they wouldn't have done it. That is a marketing decision.

People want a whole lot of different stuff, and there are plenty of manufacturers out there who are making those offerings. If the product that you are suggesting is a profitable and a technologically feasible idea, have no fear, somebody will bring it out. That would be a valid marketing decision.

Releasing new products is not always about gaining much bigger market share. Sometimes its about releasing a product that will make them some more money vs. their current offerings. If Mesa makes $200 dollars more per unit on this head than they do on the next lower model and a fourth of the buyers for that head buy this one, it can still be a good idea for them.

You may want a certain product, and ten of your buddies may want it, but really the market is so incredibly diverse these "people that are wanting" that you bring up may represent a much smaller presence than you think.

 

[Smallequestrian]

Personally, I am glad that there are some products out there that are not made for the "masses."

Fortunately, it sounds like you have found some gear that you like. I have certainly found some that I like. And I think that if manufacturers want to give us yet more options, then this is a good thing for us, the players. I leave the marketing analysis to the manufactuers.

Tom.

That was a much quicker way to say what I was thinking then what I just typed.

 

[SnoMan]

Why do I care? I think the original poster's thread title says it all.....v12 Mesa, it's about time...other makers have had 1000-1500 watt mono block amps out for over 5 years now.(GK, CArvin, Sunn 1200S / Fender others)(..so what's taking Mesa so long to come out with a competitive wattage, but hopefully add a much higher quality level.

I don't know the original poster's intent, but having done a good deal of research before purchasing my first mesa product I found a lot of TBer's to be quite unhappy with Mesa's choice of power sections in some of the newer models. Having read up on the 750 a good deal, I found many people not happy with the power rating of 750w at 2ohms.

The M-600 is more powerful than the big block at 4ohms... Mesa owners have wanted a higher power head with the Mesa tone. I believe that is what the original poster was experessing.


You're making excellent points LK, and I agree, I'm always happy to see and try new bass toys...I doubt I'll ever find a rig that's "perfect for me." I think you'd find more support for your points in their own thread rather than in a thread about Mesa's new product and comprable competitor products.

 

[KJung]

I assure you, I am all for anyone buying anything they want to or can afford. I also am "for" freedom of speech and stating what I think which in this case is only a small minority of the bass playing world is ever going to buy a 1200 watt bass head....period....let alone a "high end" Mesa.

I'm just suggesting, from a pure marketing point of view, that what the "world" wants today (this could change with technology improvements and discoveries) is not another 1200 watt mono block bass head. Doesn't mean that a limited number won't go and buy one, or I wouldn't want to hear what it sounds like over at your house sometime!!!

Lkaye

Still not sure where all the rant is coming from, but as far as a 1200 watt monoblock head... I'm very interested. It's been too long that we've all had to bridge 'stereo' power amps to get a high wattage solution. Also, the Mesa gear has a very specific sound (not my favorite, but I can understand why someone would like it). That sound traditionally came from very large and heavy all tube amps. Mesa has done the best job as I've ever heard of getting a very 'tubey' sound out of a hybrid head. I also again felt that their BB750 was underpowered with a 4 ohm load.

Per Cheezewiz, there are a number of manufacturers (Epifani and EA) that are attempting to provide very high power amps in a small light package while sidestepping the somewhat anemic punch and low end (IMO) of the very light, Class D plus switching power supply amps. They are doing this with class D amps with traditional power supplies. Very unique.

Another company (Markbass) seems to be going the other way, using an analog amp (at least in the LMII) and a switching power supply... also interesting. Yet another company (Thunderfunk) has actually figured out how to stay totally analog and still pump out 550 watts at 17 pounds... very cool!

I find the new, totally analog, massive power amps like the GB, the new Mesa, the upgraded Eden (b) models, etc. very cool. While I really like my cabinets lightweight, I have no problem carrying around a heavier head on occasion when I need the big wump.

As far as effects.... per other comments above, that idea has been tried and is not a good one.... there are a million different effects and sounds that some people might want, and most of them come in small pedal format, which to this point hasn't been a problem.

The AI effect thing, I assume, is targeted toward the many jazz guitarists that are using their gear for amplification.

 

[murphy]

Aaaaaaaahhh maaaaaaaaaahhhhh Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad! And just when I decided to get the Genz Benz GBE1200! Damnit!

I am certain you will be extremely happy with the Genz.
One of the best amps I have heard......but....heavy!

 

[GSPLBASSDC]

it is very real

here are pictures

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

How perfect....on Valentine's Day, I'm in love all over again.

That is a thing of beauty, but I agree with some of the other posters. I have a GrooveBass 1200 and I can't even use all the power in THAT! What am I gonna do with 1200 tube watts???

I am an unabashed Mesa fan, but I can't see owning one...unless it was, er......donated for <ahem> research purposes
(ya listening Mesa????)

 

[Sutton]

How perfect....on Valentine's Day, I'm in love all over again.

That is a thing of beauty, but I agree with some of the other posters. I have a GrooveBass 1200 and I can't even use all the power in THAT! What am I gonna do with 1200 tube watts???

I am an unabashed Mesa fan, but I can't see owning one...unless it was, er......donated for <ahem> research purposes
(ya listening Mesa????)

I beleive its MosFet Power, so its only tubed Preamp.....not Tube powered...