• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

1962 Jazz $20K on the bay

#401
Etchbass said:
Please tell me, how do you spot the "real deal?"

Tell me, what is the one thing that you look for on a vintage instrument that can't possibly be replicated?

I've learned enough in my many years of experience to know that there isn't anything that is untouchable, that there isn't anything that has ever been created that can't be recreated exactly... save for maybe the great pyramids, and I've also learned that there isn't anything a human being wont do to make a buck or two. That's what I've learned.

Again, I'm not proclaiming anything. I'm saying I THINK that that bass is counterfeit. There are a lot of red flags that worry me, I mentioned them in an earlier post.

The first thing I look for in a vintage instrument is it's history, which is often very easy to trace. This bass has NO PROVENANCE, nor does the precision bass that the seller has listed. There are several other vintage basses on eBAY, for thousands of dollars less, that can actually be verified with pictures and videos and receipts and original paperwork. For someone like you, dealing in the vintage market, should know how important that kind of thing is when dealing with anything collectible.

But what do I know? I'm just a crazy n00b. Obviously I'm being incredibly stupid for wanting to question the history of a $20,000 bass.

Maybe you would want to help me learn something and go through the list I made up in an earlier post, and actually give a counterpoint to each of the suspect issues that I mentioned, rather than just telling me that in your mind I'm wrong, and that I'm younger than you by about 7 years... both of which I already know.

After all, I'm here to learn, and not to preach.
Click to expand...

if you want to know about these things, ask questions. dont essentially post "you know what guys, this thing is counterfeit".

if you cant look at the board and know its old, you havent seen enough examples. if you cant look at that burst and know that no one replicates it, you havent seen enough examples. jack pidgeon who used to shoot for fender and does the aleva coppolo bursts still doesnt end up with a bass that looks like this.

red flags because the guy has an attitude so that means its counterfeit? thats a lack of logic. this guy only deals with some of the nicest vintage pieces and probably has to deal with 90% internet knuckle heads who have no intention on buying anything telling him his stuff is fake. i might make a collage too;)
 
#402
gigslut said:
tumblr_lxjm4n4umw1rn1xxfo1_400.gif
Click to expand...

+1
 
#403
narud said:
if you want to know about these things, ask questions. dont essentially post "you know what guys, this thing is counterfeit".

if you cant look at the board and know its old, you havent seen enough examples. if you cant look at that burst and know that no one replicates it, you havent seen enough examples. jack pidgeon who used to shoot for fender and does the aleva coppolo bursts still doesnt end up with a bass that looks like this.

red flags because the guy has an attitude so that means its counterfeit? thats a lack of logic. this guy only deals with some of the nicest vintage pieces and probably has to deal with 90% internet knuckle heads who have no intention on buying anything telling him his stuff is fake. i might make a collage too;)
Click to expand...

Completely agree. I personally never have any vested in calling something a fake unless I am 100 percent sure something (in part or whole) is not legitimate.

Also, an "attitude" is something I've picked up from time to time from selling instruments and instrument parts. I think it comes with the territory. You get all sorts of lowballers, people with zero clue, aggressive or arrogant buyers who think that it's all about them. Then you get people who question authenticity when they themselves have no clue. I'd tell them, if you came into a store (if I had one) and offered me 1/2 of what I was asking I'd laugh you out of the place. I'd venture a guess 98% of the buyers he gets messages/offers from are not interested in any way in a purchase.
 
#405
narud said:
if you want to know about these things, ask questions. dont essentially post "you know what guys, this thing is counterfeit".

if you cant look at the board and know its old, you havent seen enough examples. if you cant look at that burst and know that no one replicates it, you havent seen enough examples. jack pidgeon who used to shoot for fender and does the aleva coppolo bursts still doesnt end up with a bass that looks like this.

red flags because the guy has an attitude so that means its counterfeit? thats a lack of logic. this guy only deals with some of the nicest vintage pieces and probably has to deal with 90% internet knuckle heads who have no intention on buying anything telling him his stuff is fake. i might make a collage too;)
Click to expand...


Yes, if I had to bet, I would say that it is fake. I'm not saying the seller even knows it is fake. Counterfeits, very nice ones at that, have been around since the 80's and even earlier, which would mean that this may possibly be a VINTAGE counterfeit. Many copiers, and hobbyists use the same paint methods that were being used in the Fender factories in the 1960's... spaying them from the outside in, laying the bodies on a table with the support of three or four nails in the proper places, using the same paint and the same lacquer and the same sprayer, using the same wood with the same specs.


I don't care about the guys attitude. I care about the facts, which there seems to be a surprising lack of.

How is it that these basses were kept in such immaculate condition? If we are to believe that they are real, it would have to be because the original owner purchased them as collectors pieces back in the 1960's. They would have had to have been kept in a climate controlled environment for most of their existance. Now, you're telling me that the original owner went to all of this trouble, and then just threw out ALL of the paper work and disappeared? You're telling me that, even though these basses came from a collector, that it is impossible to trace where they came from?
 
#406
michael_atw said:
Nobody looks for "one thing". A Fender is made up of about a dozen different specific parts.
Click to expand...

All of which can be replicated perfectly, hahaha. That is sort of my point.

Also, if you haven't noticed... it is a buyers market. It has, and always will be about the buyer. If there is no buyer, then there is in essence, no seller.

Can you tell me with 99% certainty that these basses are absolutely real? Because if you can't... then I really don't see how you can still be arguing with me.
 
#409
Etchbass said:
I'm just tired of seeing fakes pop up on ebay all the time...

1960 Gibson Les Paul Standard | eBay

FENDER Vintage Real 1957 Stratocaster Sunburst Good Condition 312090800 | eBay

THE CLEANEST 1960 FENDER PRECISION BASS ON PLANET EARTH ORIGINAL VINTAGE INSANE! | eBay
Click to expand...


Funny that the first one you listed (the Les Paul ...suggesting its a fake) is being offered by Mike Reeder, one of the worlds foremost authorities on vintage guitars, specializing in Les Pauls. He's also one of the most honest guys in the biz, always disclosing anything that isn't "right" about a instrument he sells.
 
As an eBay Associate, TalkBass may earn a commission from qualifying purchases.
#411
As an eBay Associate, TalkBass may earn a commission from qualifying purchases.
#412
michael_atw said:
Look up the difference between confidence and arrogance.
Click to expand...

You still are avoiding answering any of the questions and concerns I have. Please, enlighten me.

And as far as that Les Paul... again, no provenance, the pictures are taken with a CAMERA PHONE. If I had to guess, I would say that that Les Paul probably is vintage, but a refinished gold top or something along those lines. Not even a serial number? Not to mention the checking in the fourth picture looks like it was done with a razor blade.
 
#414
Etchbass said:
How is it that these basses were kept in such immaculate condition? If we are to believe that they are real, it would have to be because the original owner purchased them as collectors pieces back in the 1960's. They would have had to have been kept in a climate controlled environment for most of their existance. Now, you're telling me that the original owner went to all of this trouble, and then just threw out ALL of the paper work and disappeared? You're telling me that, even though these basses came from a collector, that it is impossible to trace where they came from?
Click to expand...

Actually it happened all the time in the 60's. Every kid wanted to play guitar, but most were not too serious about it. Music stores where everywhere and a LOT of guitars were sold back then.

The better guitars, Fender, Gibson, etc were a kid's prize posession, and they treated them like gold. They weren't bought as collector pieces, and they could sit in their cases virtually unplayed for years, even decades. Hence the "under the bed" gems.
 
#415
narud said:
vintage counterfeits? you need help. your logic is- i cant see how this could possibly be real therefore its not. congratulations on reading about 80's fakes though.
Click to expand...

No, my logic is:

The history of these items cannot or has not been traced.
There are several details about these instruments which are inconsistent with other vintage instruments such as the foam beneath the pickups, the solder joints, and the condition of the hardware versus the condition of the frets.
A seller is asking 20,000 dollars and provides no information about the items being sold and has a shady return policy.
What is so wrong about questioning the authenticity of something? Aren't you just making it easier for counterfeiters by allowing these sorts of things to slip by without question?
 
#416
There are definitely fakes out there, some virtually impossible to detect, even by the best authorities in the business like Gruhn.

The thing is, if a fake gets past a Gruhn appraisal in writing, then it might as well be real, as it then "becomes" real. End of story.

To quote Rick Nielsen, an avid high-end collector....

"If it's mine, it's real. If it's yours, it's fake".
 
#417
Templar said:
Actually it happened all the time in the 60's. Every kid wanted to play guitar, but most were not too serious about it. Music stores where everywhere and a LOT of guitars were sold back then.

The better guitars, Fender, Gibson, etc were a kid's prize posession, and they treated them like gold. They weren't bought as collector pieces, and they could sit in their cases virtually unplayed for years, even decades. Hence the "under the bed" gems.
Click to expand...

I know, but under the bed gems still see the ravages of time. Checking, grime, dust, etc.

I have a collection of star wars figures that I amassed in the third grade and treated with as much care as I could muster.
The boxes have dents and dings, there is dust and scratches all over them, some have been opened and played with because I simply couldn't help myself, some were left out on display and puked on by our cat... things happen. Those basses would have had to have been put in a climate controlled environment to look the way they do. Compare them to other closet cases you have seen in the past.
 
#418
Templar said:
There are definitely fakes out there, some virtually impossible to detect, even by the best authorities in the business like Gruhn.

The thing is, if a fake gets past a Gruhn appraisal in writing, then it might as well be real, as it then "becomes" real. End of story.

To quote Rick Nielsen, an avid high-end collector....

"If it's mine, it's real. If it's yours, it's fake".
Click to expand...

Very true.

I just don't think we should ever stop questioning.
 
#419
Etchbass said:
No, my logic is:
Aren't you just making it easier for counterfeiters by allowing these sorts of things to slip by without question?
Click to expand...

no your just making it easier for dealers to call people dumbasses. foam doesnt always deteriorate. the frets on my f bass turned green. ive seen stranger ****.

shady return policy? how many cars have return policies? houses? these things arent commemorative silver eagle dollars from the franklin mint. they usually dont have certificates of authenticity. that gives you the uh-oh feeling? than i guess if you ever want to buy a vintage bass it wont be from tune-o-matic. no worries, im sure he'll do fine.
 
#420
Etchbass said:
You still are avoiding answering any of the questions and concerns I have. Please, enlighten me.

And as far as that Les Paul... again, no provenance, the pictures are taken with a CAMERA PHONE. If I had to guess, I would say that that Les Paul probably is vintage, but a refinished gold top or something along those lines. Not even a serial number? Not to mention the checking in the fourth picture looks like it was done with a razor blade.
Click to expand...

Actually, have you CALLED to ask about provenance ? He STATES that...."It is a pro played guitar that has passed through the hands of some of the greatest players of all time" ...so CLEARLY he knows a great deal of the history, all you have to do is ASK ...instead of just ASSUMING. He also states it has a refret, repaired headstock, etc .... don't you think if it was a full refin (other than the repair area) that would have been stated as well ? It certainly could be, and one of his employees forgot to mention it in the ad....but I'm sure if you asked for more details, Mike would be glad to give them to you. Seriously...knowing Mike, he's checked all the electronics for codes, broken solder joints, proper PAF's (most likely long mag ones in a 60, though there were short mags as well that year), proper headstock angle (you know this is different than reissues, right ?), proper placement of the pots (you also know that this is different, right ?), brazilian board, blacklighted, etc, etc, etc....

The thing is that you are making ASSUMPTIONS without either talking to the dealer, asking questions, seeing more pics, etc... (and BTW - I wouldn't assume that those are camera phone pics either...)

I'm not saying that you're wrong ...there are a lot of counterfeits out there.... what I'm saying is that you are "making assumptions" with extremely limited information, and those assumptions are unfounded till you know more.

See what I'm saying ?
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back