Also, look at the instruments Gruhn is selling and how he is selling them. He lists every flaw and correction, and goes to great lengths to answer any and all questions, and offers as much history as is possible.
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1962 Jazz $20K on the bay
- Thread starter themacinator
- Start date
I know. You are right. I don't want to waste his time with questions like that though when I'm not in the market for a vintage Les Paul. Maybe that Les Paul was a bad example. I'm pretty sure those are camera phone pictures though, lol.
[edit] I just want to say that all the things you listed that Mike checks for can be easily faked. I'm not saying they are, and I'm not saying it isn't great that he checks for them, but they CAN be replicated, and they have been replicated. The only thing that can't be is the instruments verifiable history. Just something for other people posting in this thread to think about.... Even the world's foremost authorities have been fooled in the past.
And that's fine and great. However, you might find that he does that because he doesn't really like to talk to customers...wants as little "personal" interaction as possible. Other deals like to have the customers call and talk to them personally, so they give enough info to get a potential customer intrigued and then list their phone number(s) in the ad, like Mike does. Gruhn is a good dealer ...I've dealt with him in the past and had zero issues. Mike, Scott, Steve, etc, etc are all also good dealers ...they just have different ways of dealing with customers, and have different styles of selling.
Again, you can't make assumptions using extremely limited/incomplete info.
No worries man... it's good to be skeptical...but you still have to have enough info to either "discredit" a piece or "verify" it.
BTW - the reason I doubt that those are camera pics is that I dealt with Mike for a lot of years (haven't in about 8 years though...i don't do vintage stuff any more), and he always had a good camera. (maybe he's using an iphone for convenience these days though...)
Have a great day....
Dude. You censored my quote. How many instruments have return policies? The foam they used does ALWAYS-let me say that again- ALWAYS deteriorate. The chemical compound the foam is made from just breaks down. There is no way around that, unless he kept the foam on ice in a freezer for 50+ years.
- Feb 16, 2008
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- John K Custom Basses
FWIW, i have never seen anyone able to counterfeit the early tort fender pickguard's material, color or lamination thicknesses, and i'm 100% positive that the guards on tun-o-matic's 60 p and '62 jazz are original. IMO, every aspect of those two basses indicates that they are 100% original whether one cares to believe it or not. every counterfeit that i've seen (and i've seen some very good ones in the last 42 years) has something that's questionable about it, and his two have absolutely nothing to indicate that they are not original instruments.
No worries - like I say, it's good to be curious and skeptical. Just gotta be careful about making snap judgments .... but sometimes a"gut feeling" is all you can go on.
No, they don't have to deteriorate much, they tend to stay preserved like mummies, especially in their hard cases. Under a bed, in a closet or whatever....that IS a "controlled environment".
Ironically, I bought some Star Trek figures in 1992 as an investment. (hey, I was drunk one nite and succumbed to a TV infomercial).
They remain unopened, stored out in my garage. Haven't looked at them for many years, but I have a feeling they're still pristine. Thanks for reminding me, I should ebay the silly things! lol
honestly, we could all argue about it forever.
darkhorse summed it up really well in his last post.
there are really good fakes out there, sometimes you do have to go with your gut, history is always a good thing to look into, the character of the seller doesn't necessarily mean the item is fake or real, and I guess i shouldn't really worry about it so much because i'm not even looking to buy right now. did i miss anything?
oh yeah, i'm still waiting for that collage you said you would make me narud... no one has ever made me anything.
darkhorse summed it up really well in his last post.
there are really good fakes out there, sometimes you do have to go with your gut, history is always a good thing to look into, the character of the seller doesn't necessarily mean the item is fake or real, and I guess i shouldn't really worry about it so much because i'm not even looking to buy right now. did i miss anything?
oh yeah, i'm still waiting for that collage you said you would make me narud... no one has ever made me anything.
Save em! make sure they are still there and in good shape, but save em! The market is bad right now! Wait till the economy gets better or a new star trek movie comes out!!!
aborgman said:
That's the crux of the problem dating vintage Fenders, the interchangeability and prevalence of vintage parts.
Again I'm not referring to the bass in question, but many previously modified Fenders have been put back to stock using period correct parts, and many counterfeits use a few real parts that are difficult or too expensive to reproduce (nitro tort material, for example, identical to that used by Fender and made by the same Italian company that supplied them in the '60s, is still available but only in a very large minimum order, and as far as I know no one had ever re-sourced it.
BTW, see my previous post if you want to know where the two basses in question came from Before being flipped by TOM (i.e Heritage Auctions). I linked the auction in question. For all I know the basses had provenance from the auction house and TOM could prove it.
I have seen him swap parts on basses he has bought and sold before on eBay. Nothing major, just tuning keys, etc. Once in a while no matter how you cover your tracks, slip ups happen.
The upside of this is that the market for most vintage Fenders does not require provenance, so great is the demand. A parts period correct bass has a high stable value and buyers know they can flip it.
100% original means everything is the same as when it left the factory floor. So I doubt you see many of those... I'd be willing to even fudge the originality a bit to allow for replacement of wear items - but technically even changing the strings violates "100% original".
As for 100% original being both - yes, but not vice versa.
A 100% original instrument will have 100% correct date parts, but 100% date correct parts doesn't mean it's 100% original instrument.
- Feb 16, 2008
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judging by the condition of ALL of the parts on tun-o-matic's two basses (the topic of this thread), i'd be willing to bet that every single part (and screw) on those basses came on them originally when they left the factory. IMO, there's absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. now if one just wants to argue about something, that's a whole other thing. 
Hi fellas.
Your stamina and stick-to-it-itveness and endurance is very impressive and you have inspired me.
Here is poem that I wrote for you guys to express my admiration.
I looked for something I thought couldn't be found
A place where these posters could find common ground
Something on which they all could agree
And I looked and I looked but none I could see
I almost gave gave up on this futile endeavor...'till etchbass said...
"honestly, we could all argue about it forever."
Carry on.
Green
Your stamina and stick-to-it-itveness and endurance is very impressive and you have inspired me.
Here is poem that I wrote for you guys to express my admiration.
I looked for something I thought couldn't be found
A place where these posters could find common ground
Something on which they all could agree
And I looked and I looked but none I could see
I almost gave gave up on this futile endeavor...'till etchbass said...
"honestly, we could all argue about it forever."
Carry on.
Green
That's why I said 100% original is both.
Good luck determining if the correct date parts are original to any instrument in this condition made in a mass produced setting...IME, it's easier to tell a parter when the parts are a bit worn and mismatches show more easily.
Exactly...
Which is why I'm always highly suspicious when they say 100% original.
Not a knob, screw, or string replaced? They might be out there, but I doubt anyone on this board has ever seen one.
Heck - even matching #'s, concourse show quality cars aren't 100% original.
