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1962 Jazz $20K on the bay

actually just looked at etchbass' profile.. HA

tb-full of the youngest, least experienced vintage experts anywhere!

Thank you for your bigotry. May I return the favor now by looking at your profile and then criticizing you for your age and resistance to logic or reason?

I never claimed to be a vintage expert... Just someone with common sense that is trying to look out for fellow TB'ers, and someone that happens to know a few things about basses because I have worked with them every day since age 12.

This is a thread about basses selling on ebay. Keep the personal attacks to yourself. I may very well be young and naive, but hey, at least there's a chance I'll grow out of it. I wish I could say the same for you.
 
John K., did you buy the bass? Did that winky thing mean something?

nope. i didn't buy it. a friend of mine did. and as Napleon Dynamite would say "luuucky!"

i've dealt with the seller in the past and i think if you met him, you couldn't meet a nicer guy. i think that what happens is that a bunch of lookie loo's on the internet that know nothing about vintage instruments kinda gets to him after a while, and that might be what 'chaps his hide" which may make him come off as rude to some. i also think that he is used to dealing with a pretty 'upper echelon' type of buyer/collector.
 
It might be because he gets a lot of flak. I'm sure he's the target of both praise and ridicule and he probably gets a lot of it.

I'm willing to bet he wouldn't get as much flak if he wrote better descriptions, or if he was able to provide a history of the basses he is selling, or if he sold them through a private dealer rather than ebay, or if he sold them at prices that are an honest reflection of the vintage market, or if he had a return policy that wasn't full of loopholes, or if he didn't answer serious questions from potential buyers with answers such as "if you really want me to answer a question about this bass then this may not be the bass for you," or if he did not entirely stop taking questions from potential buyers, or if he did not take items down and relist them so frequently, or if he had better ebay feedback.

...Just some things for the sensitive seller to consider.
 
nope. i didn't buy it. a friend of mine did. and as Napleon Dynamite would say "luuucky!"

i've dealt with the seller in the past and i think if you met him, you couldn't meet a nicer guy. i think that what happens is that a bunch of lookie loo's on the internet that know nothing about vintage instruments kinda gets to him after a while, and that might be what 'chaps his hide" which may make him come off as rude to some. i also think that he is used to dealing with a pretty 'upper echelon' type of buyer/collector.

Is your friend a member of TB? If so, we should probably close this thread and stop talking about his new bass, regardless of our opinions.
 
nope. i didn't buy it. a friend of mine did. and as Napleon Dynamite would say "luuucky!"

i've dealt with the seller in the past and i think if you met him, you couldn't meet a nicer guy. i think that what happens is that a bunch of lookie loo's on the internet that know nothing about vintage instruments kinda gets to him after a while, and that might be what 'chaps his hide" which may make him come off as rude to some. i also think that he is used to dealing with a pretty 'upper echelon' type of buyer/collector.

Are you saying his target market isn't 20 something know it all's ?
 
Who know's if it's the real deal, it's out of my league. But I do know an acquantance that sold a very nicely re-fin Les Paul 59, only to see it resurface as an original on Ebay.

Sound perception is a slippery deal. Sound is real (to correct an original post) our human perception of loudness, pitch, warmth etc is a perception of the physical stimulus. That is why if you play a note at a low volume then turn it up really loud it will 'go sharp', but the frequency didn't change, our perception did.

I recently read about a study of choclolate. They used every day and gourmet chocolates, what they found out was that many times the last chocolate tasted was rated as best, It often didn't matter if it was a gourmet choclate or not.

Like beer, is the first or the last the best?

I just heard about that on NPR the other day. Very interesting. Although for me, I think probably the second or third beer is usually the best, not the first or the last, haha.
 
I know when I was in vintage retail, 99 times out of 100 I could tell if a buyer was really in the market by the way he/she asked questions. A non-buyer would ask "are you sure it's not a refin?"....a potential buyer would ask "can I get more detailed photos with the neck/pickguard off ?". A non-buyer would say "that looks too clean to be real".... a potential buyer would say "Beautiful bass ... do you know anything of its' history ?" Just things like that. Typically a non-buyer asks questions in a negative manner, and a potential buyer inquires in a positive manner, but with a grain of skepticism. They want more information....they aren't just out to disprove authenticity...they know that pictures, history, etc will either prove or disprove it. Of course I was always cordial to all customers, but usually it doesn't take much to figure out who's a tire kicker and who's a buyer.

Just my $.02
 
nope. i didn't buy it. a friend of mine did.

Cool. It would be great to hear a sample of the tone before it went back into the cryogenic chamber. He could wear a Nixon mask or something if he didn't want to identify himself.

Of course, then people would argue over how much of what we're hearing is the tone of the bass and whatever he/she is playing through. Never mind.
 
Thank you for your bigotry. May I return the favor now by looking at your profile and then criticizing you for your age and resistance to logic or reason?

I never claimed to be a vintage expert... Just someone with common sense that is trying to look out for fellow TB'ers, and someone that happens to know a few things about basses because I have worked with them every day since age 12.

This is a thread about basses selling on ebay. Keep the personal attacks to yourself. I may very well be young and naive, but hey, at least there's a chance I'll grow out of it. I wish I could say the same for you.
ive collected, bought, sold vintage fenders for around the last 10 years and have learned enough to know theres still a bunch to learn. i have learned how to spot the real deal though. you havent and do tb a dis-service by proclaiming instruments as counterfeit.
 
Doesn't matter who his target market is. There is a right way and a wrong way to treat fellow human beings.

Dan, You are a saint. I know very few people that can put up with as much BS as I have seen you take and not loose your cool.

A lot of people get tired of it and say & do things they shouldn't.

Darkhorse said it in his last post and I know first hand that he is right. After a while you get tired of taking crap from people that could never buy what you are selling even if they really wanted it. They send e mails and say things that they would never have the guts to say face to face in a store.
 
CDweller said:
Seems like a good place for a bass player to park some money. One could put the money in the stock market, but for most, that's just gambling. We're not on the board of directors, for the most part, and we're not on the inside.

We are bass players though, and some of us like the tone of an old Fender bass. And yes, our ears are big enough to hear the difference between a vintage bass and something newer. If you can't hear it or want to say no one can, that's fine; I don't have the time or inclination to debate. Don't buy it, and don't place a high value on vintage instruments. Others of us will.

A bass like this serves as an investment, especially since the economy is in the crapper, and likely to stay there for a while yet. The price of this bass is low, and will go up when the economy improves. It also serves as a musical instrument, and can be played, although it might be best to be played under very safe conditions, such as at rehearsal studios and recording studios. It also just satisfies a longing for something of quality in one's life. Perhaps it fulfills all the yearning one had as a younger man when money was scarce. Perhaps it reminds one of days gone by, like when you played in a killer local band back in '68, and you actually had a '62.

If you don't see value in a bass like this, that's cool, and your prerogative. Others of us do, and maybe might even buy this bass ;)

I for one would put the kids up sale if I thought they'd bring back somethin' like this
 
Dan, You are a saint. I know very few people that can put up with as much BS as I have seen you take and not loose your cool.

A lot of people get tired of it and say & do things they shouldn't.

Darkhorse said it in his last post and I know first hand that he is right. After a while you get tired of taking crap from people that could never buy what you are selling even if they really wanted it. They send e mails and say things that they would never have the guts to say face to face in a store.

Believe me, I can understand the frustration he probably feels. However, I think he clearly takes things WAY too far. Like when he took the time and energy to put together this photo collage of TB members and post it on his eBay listings. The guy obviously has some issues.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
i'm not defending the seller. he's his own man, and he can speak for himself, but when i met him, he was very polite and just kept pulling out vintage guitars and basses one after another just to share them with me. years ago, i returned a 100% original vintage jazz bass that i bought from him on ebay for more than $5K that had a slight neck issue and he refunded my money right there on the spot. most people would've thought the neck was perfectly fine and would've been thrilled with it, but i'm kinda obsessive about a neck's feel.

and i agree that you should treat eveyone with the same respect and courtesy, (at least initally ;)). when a kid's mom that knew nothing about instruments would come into my shop, i'd give her the same respect, information and deal on anything in the store as a gigging musician.
 
The main flaw in human hearing actually has nothing to do with the ears. It's the brain. That video I linked to does a great job of demonstrating this. Long story short, our ears can often be tricked by what the brain (and sometimes eyes) expects to hear. Like my example where the EQ was bypassed, but the mixing engineer could have sworn he heard audible changes as he tweaked it.

So that throws a HUGE monkey wrench into this whole debate, and is another reason why it's probably a waste of time discussing it.

Exactly my point.

Our brains stabilize colours, and convert sound (which does exist, but what I was trying to describe was that our brains recreate the sounds in a way that is useful for our survival, etc) into a complete sensoral landscape that uses large parts of our brains and in feedback loops with emotions, etc.

Because the way the ear picks up sound mechanically in a way we understand well it is easy to imagine we process these sounds in a similarly mechanical way but it is obviously very far from the truth.

The point is we can measure auditory distinction in narrow experiments, but it is constantly dependent on so many things, and the subjective element cannot be removed. I'm describing this clumsily as I am not very rigorous intellectually and only have a vague understanding of the complexity and details of how our brains and nervous system recreate a world that is intelligible to us and allows us to function.

Don't forget our senses take in way more than we are aware of at a given moment as we would simply be unable to function due to massive sensory overload if we weren't constantly filtering and attenuating or blocking the majority of sensoral information being picked up in any given instance.

Dan, I really appreciate you taking the effort to understand where I am coming from and that you obviously understand independently the complexity of the subject.
 
Sound perception is a slippery deal. Sound is real (to correct an original post) our human perception of loudness, pitch, warmth etc is a perception of the physical stimulus. That is why if you play a note at a low volume then turn it up really loud it will 'go sharp', but the frequency didn't change, our perception did.

I recently read about a study of choclolate. They used every day and gourmet chocolates, what they found out was that many times the last chocolate tasted was rated as best, It often didn't matter if it was a gourmet choclate or not.

Like beer, is the first or the last the best?

Thanks for the clarification.

I trust my ears in that I have to use them to pick an instrument, EQ an amp, etc. etc. but I don't ever expect them to tell me what I'm 'really' hearing because perception is really what counts in this case, and it is dependent on many things. It is very far from being at any time a snapshot of the actual frequencies being propagated, being filtered and shaped first by the shape and distance of and between our ears, to the mechanical operations of the different parts of the ear, to the conversion to synaptical activity, to the reordering and organizing of this activity in the brain.
 
ive collected, bought, sold vintage fenders for around the last 10 years and have learned enough to know theres still a bunch to learn. i have learned how to spot the real deal though. you havent and do tb a dis-service by proclaiming instruments as counterfeit.

Please tell me, how do YOU spot the "real deal?"

Tell me, what is the one thing that you look for on a vintage instrument that can't possibly be replicated?

I've learned enough in my many years of experience to know that there isn't anything that is untouchable, that there isn't anything that has ever been created that can't be recreated exactly... save for maybe the great pyramids, and I've also learned that there isn't anything a human being wont do to make a buck or two. That's what I've learned.

Again, I'm not proclaiming anything. I'm saying I THINK that that bass is counterfeit. There are a lot of red flags that worry me, I mentioned them in an earlier post.

The first thing I look for in a vintage instrument is it's history, which is often very easy to trace. This bass has NO PROVENANCE, nor does the precision bass that the seller has listed. There are several other vintage basses on eBAY, for thousands of dollars less, that can actually be verified with pictures and videos and receipts and original paperwork. For someone like you, dealing in the vintage market, should know how important that kind of thing is when dealing with anything collectible.

But what do I know? I'm just a crazy n00b. Obviously I'm being incredibly stupid for wanting to question the history of a $20,000 bass.

Maybe you would want to help me learn something and go through the list I made up in an earlier post, and actually give a counterpoint to each of the suspect issues that I mentioned, rather than just telling me that in your mind I'm wrong, and that I'm younger than you by about 7 years... both of which I already know.

After all, I'm here to learn, and not to preach.