1962 Jazz $20K on the bay

[GM60466]

$20K seems in line for this bass this clean.

 

[Giraffe]

I read an interview with George Gruhn a few years ago where he stated in no uncertain terms that the state of counterfeiting had pulled even with or overtaken the (real) experts to some degree, meaning there was no 100% reliable "expert" any longer (including himself). He said he had carefully examined instruments that were known to be counterfeit, and he could not say that he could distinguish them from the real deal.

He was speaking of the vintage market in general, and he offered examples of pre-war Martins and old Gibson mandolins, built by experts for the purpose of fooling experts. I don't remember if he referred to slabs in the article, but he pointed out that it was a very painstaking and expensive proposition, and it was worth the counterfeiter's time when the price of the item was high enough to offer a good profit.

His point was if it ever got too widespread, it could very well decay the foundation of the vintage market, collapsing prices to a large degree (and destroying the counterfeiter's market).

I know a few high-end collectors, and they all follow a very conservative protocol involving at least one in-hand appraisal by one of the legitimate heavy hitters in the vintage market (paid for by the buyer) before they pay(unless they're buying from someone like Gruhn, Dick, etc.). I doubt many guys buy an instrument like that Jazz Bass based on the pictures in the ad.

 

[michael_atw]

I doubt many guys buy an instrument like that Jazz Bass based on the pictures in the ad.

Indeed. It's just a "line" or reference point of sale. Much like vehicles are on Ebay as well.

 

[Darnell Jones]

Are you suggesting people don't by cars on ebay by the thousands based on just the pictures?

 

[Darnell Jones]

Vintage guitars are not only owned by an elite and highly trained squad of appraisers. They are bought by rich lawyers and doctors that tell stories of how swamp ash grows underwater and you can hear the nitro, and how this one goes up to 11...

 

[Giraffe]

...I doubt many guys buy an instrument like that Jazz Bass based on the pictures in the ad.

That's what I said, and that's what I meant.

 

[michael_atw]

Are you suggesting people don't by cars on ebay by the thousands based on just the pictures?

*sigh* Geez..you'd argue with anything it seems.

No, I'm saying that if someone was bidding on a '62 Thunderbird on Ebay for $30k, I would assume they would go look at it first. That's why they call them "Ebay motors classifieds".

You keep making the thread comments about much more than they really are.

 

[Darnell Jones]

*sigh* Geez..you'd argue with anything it seems.

No, I'm saying that if someone was bidding on a '62 Thunderbird on Ebay for $30k, I would assume they would go look at it first. That's why they call them "Ebay motors classifieds".

You keep making the thread comments about much more than they really are.

You seem to be losing control here You made a comment and I asked for clarification.

Your assumption about the tbird is wrong. You can see this by watching the bidding. Or just decide that everyone who bids flies out for a full inspection first, yeah that works. I guess you were right again

 

[mndean]

If I were to have the kind of money to buy the '60 Precision shown in comments, I'd go to L.A. to have a look at it in person and have it appraised. It seems just good sense. The trip is a fraction of the cost of the item, especially from where I live. I likewise would not buy a collectable car without an inspection. I used to own a couple of collectable cars and passed on dozens that didn't meet up to my expectations.

 

[michael_atw]

You seem to be losing control here You made a comment and I asked for clarification.

Your assumption about the tbird is wrong. You can see this by watching the bidding. Or just decide that everyone who bids flies out for a full inspection first, yeah that works. I guess you were right again

Judging by some of your comments thus far, there is no difference in your realm between being a smart-ass and asking legit questions. All apologies for overlooking it.

But alas, my point once again: Ebay is a point of reference for sales. 100% guarantee very very very few people pay for a $30K vehicle before inspecting it. Ebay is not a legally binding contract; winning a listing is not a point of sale. Point of sale is when payment is exchanged - which in likely all cases of something that valuable would consist of cash or check of some sort and an inspection.

 

[pbassnut]

I'm immediately suspicious!

I don't recognize that assembly under the ashtray.
Never saw one before anywhere.

I used to own a '62 Jazz and all it had was a black weatherstrip rubber mute stuck under the ashtray. No assembly whatsoever.

Either this is a VERY rare prototypical Jazz Bass or a very elaborate counterfeit.

Anybody else recognize those mutes and metal screwdowns?

Also, I know the constant-thickness rosewood fingerboard has some significance for dating, but I'm not knowledgeable on that one.

I also can't tell if the bridge saddles in the pics are the threaded type. In '62 they should have been.

The dot markers look like the original clay markers Leo cut out of cheap floor tiles back then.

I'm also not sure about the neck pocket being completely painted either.

The Waterslide decal is a red flag too. "Offset Contour Body" used to always be in the center of the circle-end of the headstock, not where it's shown on the pics.
To me that's a BIG red flag.

I think we need an expert to evaluate this baby.
It sure does look fine on first look. It'll be interesting to see if anybody throws $20 grande at it.

My understanding is that Fender did employ that screw on mute structure up until some time in '62. Also, '62 is the year that Fender switched from the slab rosewood fingerboards to the veneer style like this one. I'd be very curious to know how well it plays. The J necks of that era tend to be very thin and bow relatively easily (at least compared to the considerably thicker P necks) ... and in general, instruments don't react well to not being played for over 50 years.

 

[bluesblaster]

There was no paint stick mark in that era. This bass is legit.

I stand corrected then.

 

[wraub]

Yes.
That does look like a Jazz bass.

wraub

 

[meatwad]

A couple of years ago there was a thread here about a $40k bass, and some TB members said it was too steep. So the seller came on here and compiled a collage of photos of those TB members where he trashed them for being fat, old, ugly, and in my case poor because he found a pic of me with a VM Squier.

Might have been tune_o_matic, but can't remember.

It was t_o_m, and it was also that very auction of his that introduced me to TB (or to "the salt of the earth", as he put it).

 

[okcrum]

But alas, my point once again: Ebay is a point of reference for sales. 100% guarantee very very very few people pay for a $30K vehicle before inspecting it. Ebay is not a legally binding contract; winning a listing is not a point of sale. Point of sale is when payment is exchanged - which in likely all cases of something that valuable would consist of cash or check of some sort and an inspection.

Not to mention also having a 3rd party escrow service involved in the transaction.

 

[One Drop]

We are talking about this instrument. By we, I mean the present thread. The specific instance of people wondering if this "closet classic" is authentic. That was my particular point - that only collector's of the expert kind would even bother to have serious interest in this bass.

*sigh* never once did I say anything about a dealer who cannot be fooled ever; nor did I ever say there weren't any pre-CBS counterfeits. In fact, I've re-iterated the opposite. I'm talking about this specific bass; have been for every post (except the one's in response to other postings which may have been more generalized).

You can sigh and say 'alas' as much as you want at our poor, misguided ideas- yes, it's such a chore being the only holder of the truth, isn't it?

 

[One Drop]

After the author ranted about so-called "experts", he utters this line:

"Many big name experts bought copies. In fact there is a book out now from Italy. A book of vintage strats with a blatantly fake '64 in its pages. So a bunch of people will be looking at that for reference. Sheesh."

Oh the irony. I guess he's more of the "I can ID a Fender by the pictures in a book" kind of guy rather than the "I can ID it from across the room."

It's obvious you read that article and took nothing in but the one line you think you can debunk it with, but your argument is backwards. Think about it for a few minutes.

 

[One Drop]

But I digress. It was merely a side-point. My point, which originated the side-conversation, was "I personally by default believe it is authentic due to the nature of the people who would be purchasing it for the amount of money."

If that's your point, then I won't argue. That's the same thinking that let Madoff make off with the millions of otherwise well informed and rational investors.

Furthermore, it has been correctly mentioned that dealers are not the clients ads like this, and in spite of what some believe, many of the ones that do buy from eBay sellers who have built a 'brand' of themselves on eBay or through a shop front or Internet site, do buy sight unseen, without a third party, as escrow or inspecting parties.

 

[One Drop]

I read an interview with George Gruhn a few years ago where he stated in no uncertain terms that the state of counterfeiting had pulled even with or overtaken the (real) experts to some degree, meaning there was no 100% reliable "expert" any longer (including himself). He said he had carefully examined instruments that were known to be counterfeit, and he could not say that he could distinguish them from the real deal.

He was speaking of the vintage market in general, and he offered examples of pre-war Martins and old Gibson mandolins, built by experts for the purpose of fooling experts. I don't remember if he referred to slabs in the article, but he pointed out that it was a very painstaking and expensive proposition, and it was worth the counterfeiter's time when the price of the item was high enough to offer a good profit.

His point was if it ever got too widespread, it could very well decay the foundation of the vintage market, collapsing prices to a large degree (and destroying the counterfeiter's market).

I know a few high-end collectors, and they all follow a very conservative protocol involving at least one in-hand appraisal by one of the legitimate heavy hitters in the vintage market (paid for by the buyer) before they pay(unless they're buying from someone like Gruhn, Dick, etc.). I doubt many guys buy an instrument like that Jazz Bass based on the pictures in the ad.

Your post is too factual and relevant to argue about, I guess!

 

[One Drop]

Judging by some of your comments thus far, there is no difference in your realm between being a smart-ass and asking legit questions. All apologies for overlooking it.

But alas, my point once again: Ebay is a point of reference for sales. 100% guarantee very very very few people pay for a $30K vehicle before inspecting it. Ebay is not a legally binding contract; winning a listing is not a point of sale. Point of sale is when payment is exchanged - which in likely all cases of something that valuable would consist of cash or check of some sort and an inspection.

You live in a world of certainties that is very far removed from reality. Your 100% guarantees would be very costly in the real world.

Do you have any arguments at all about the subject of this thread based on facts?