2009 Toyota Prius

[anniemcu]

The Smart is a car designed for a certain purpose - to take up less space in a congested city, and to make it easy to park. The older, slightly smaller model was able to be parked face-on in a parking space, instead of sideways as usual, meaning you could fit 2-3 Smarts in a parking space, instead of one regularly-sized car. It gets reasonably good fuel economy, but hardly class-leading. What it does, it does well, but don't look to it for better economy. The Mini gets about the same fuel economy, but is more spacious, nicer inside and a lot nicer to drive.

I think the class leader in fuel economy at the moment is the VW Polo BlueMotion. It's got a 1.4l diesel engine, and revised gearing and aerodynamic enhancements compared to the regular Polo. The result? 70+ mpg. Nice little car too, comfortable, lots of boot/trunk space, and will accommodate an SVT 8x10...

Yeah, and not much equivalent in the US... yet...

...telling that it took 40 years and a second huge gas price gouging event to finally get these things rolling. Sad to think of the amount of progress that would have been made if we'd taken the idea of responsible driving and limiting pollution more seriously back then, and actually invested in making better cars instead of just better-selling cars. We be a fickle lot, we human types.

 

[hbarcat]

that's not true, that's not how the prius works. there's a planetary gearset and a computer control that handles the power from both the engine and the motor. they call this the hybrid synergy drive - it constantly adjusts how much power is coming from which powerplant.

there's a lot of misinformation about these vehicles circulating around. i'd suggest folks that are old enough go try one out, and talk to the salesman about it. they're really neat cars, and a lot more than just "a little bit" more mpg. i've got almost the same amount of cargo space as a camry, laid out very intelligently, and better gas mileage than a smart car.

Since this post I took some time to get up to speed on the newer Prius and you are correct - it can use either the battery or the battery plus gasoline engine or just the gasoline engine.

This is the Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD) available in 2004 and it's a huge advancement over the previous drive systems.

However, I did make the point that these vehicles are already hideously complicated (which is why I didn't think they would use this type of system in vehicle designed for public passenger use. The drive consists of
1) a gasoline powered engine using a modified Atkinson cycle
2) a primary electric motor primarily used for electrical generation that charges the battery and/or powers
3) a secondary electric motor that drives the wheels
4) a continuously variable drive that couples the two motors and the engine together via
5) computerized drive control which takes input from
6) extensive system of electronic sensors
7) small generators coupled to the wheels which scavenge kinetic energy from the vehicle when braking


This system is many times more complex than the entire engine and engine management system in a traditional engined vehicle. There is no question that this is a fantastic piece of technology and if these vehicles can prove to be reliable over the normal lifetime of a car, then this would be something that large portions of the public would be happy to rush out and buy.

For the record, I've long been an advocate of both electric and hybrid electric cars as a viable option for commuter use and I'd like to see them become widespread in cities. I'm just skeptical that such a giant step forward in technology and complexity can be reliable. Or to put it differently - to be reliable for a reasonable price. Making something much more reliable means it costs much more to manufacture and I wonder how much of a public subsidy is going into them in order to make them affordable to the consumer.

 

[pedulla-2007]

The Prius received the second-lowest rating of "Marginal" for whiplash protection in rear impacts because the design of its seats didn't do enough to protect an occupant's neck, the Institute said.

 

[mvw356]

Emissions testing and mpg are two separate things.

Mike

imho they are not. the op started the thread about a prius, which is advertised as environmentaly friendly due to low emissions and high mpg.

 

[jojobean39]

Octane ratings are calculated differently in the UK and Europe, versus the US. Here we use the R+M/2 method, while over there they use the R number for their ratings.

Also, using higher octane fuel doesn't mean more mpg, in fact in many cases it could lower the mpg. Higher octane fuel requires higher cylinder pressure to burn efficiently. You should use the fuel the manufacturer specifies for your car.

Thanks for the clarification on that. I never thought about their calculating methods. I just noticed the octane levels were far higher than the ones I see in the US.

My car has seen the premium stuff but once. I don't want to spoil my car into thinking it deserves the premium stuff. My car is the ultimate money savings as I have no payment. I'll get a new one when this one refuses to run. And by new I mean used. I'm cheap when it comes to cars.

 

[peterbright]

You may have posted this before, but what is your average mileage and rough percentage of city/highway driving? I know the Prius' mileage ratings run in reverse from a fully gas engine, but I'm curious. I've read countless reviews and seen both the EPA ratings and the publications' observed fuel economy, but I'd like to know how the car does for you in the real world.

Mike

I just passed 17,000 miles and average 50 mpg. It's the only vehicle I have ever owned that beats the EPA estimate. MPG is affected (about 5 mpg) if you use an ethanol blend. The biggest killers as far as mileage is concerned are short hops because the catalytic converter has to reach a certain temperature blah blah blah and driving into headwinds.

I have averaged 54 mpg on trips to Orlando & back (400 + miles round trip & drafting really helps) but most of my driving is under 60 MPH. Usually I can blow the doors off the cars most people drive when getting away from a stop light (not recommended for increased mileage but occasionally useful). The 2010's will have a larger gas engine & will get better mileage.

 

[mike_v_s]

imho they are not. the op started the thread about a prius, which is advertised as environmentaly friendly due to low emissions and high mpg.

To you, they might not be, but when a vehicle is tested for emissions and rated to be cleaner than another, it is because those emissions are, quite simply, cleaner. What you are talking about is a vehicle's overall environmental impact. If you're going to start grouping the measurements together, don't stop at mpg as there's a whole lot more. We might as well start taking the manufacturing of the materials used to build a vehicle and their eventual disposal into account, for starters.

Mike

 

[mike_v_s]

I just passed 17,000 miles and average 50 mpg. It's the only vehicle I have ever owned that beats the EPA estimate.

Interesting. My car is the first I've ever owned that consistently met the epa estimates. I can exceed them, but it takes absolute ridiculous driving to the point where it might not be considered safe.

Mike

 

[mike_v_s]

The Smart is a car designed for a certain purpose - to take up less space in a congested city, and to make it easy to park. The older, slightly smaller model was able to be parked face-on in a parking space, instead of sideways as usual, meaning you could fit 2-3 Smarts in a parking space, instead of one regularly-sized car. It gets reasonably good fuel economy, but hardly class-leading. What it does, it does well, but don't look to it for better economy. The Mini gets about the same fuel economy, but is more spacious, nicer inside and a lot nicer to drive.

With regards to the Smart: I guess I'm just blown away that a car THAT diminutive isn't designed to take advantage of that size with better fuel economy. It is a great city car, but it just would make sense if it offered the superior fuel economy its size suggests.

Mike

 

[mvw356]

To you, they might not be, but when a vehicle is tested for emissions and rated to be cleaner than another, it is because those emissions are, quite simply, cleaner. What you are talking about is a vehicle's overall environmental impact. If you're going to start grouping the measurements together, don't stop at mpg as there's a whole lot more. We might as well start taking the manufacturing of the materials used to build a vehicle and their eventual disposal into account, for starters.

Mike

i agree with that and therefore think it's more environmentally friendly to keep on driving your old banger instead of buying a new car. i don't buy into the prius hype bcause the batteries consume more energy to make than they will ever save you. imho it's all marketing scam.

 

[lowend1]

it has plenty of pickup, plenty of top speed, considering what it is

Yeah, if the roads you drive on are inside the retirement community. Anywhere else, I want more under the hood and under my butt.

 

[anniemcu]

i agree with that and therefore think it's more environmentally friendly to keep on driving your old banger instead of buying a new car. i don't buy into the prius hype bcause the batteries consume more energy to make than they will ever save you. imho it's all marketing scam.

Just a reminder that the old bangers use batteries too, and those are not much less problematic on manufacture and disposal.

Also, if you want to get all disturbed about the manufacturing, you'd better start using that cell phone a lot less, as well as your PC and laptop.

The Prius is certainly not *the* answer to the problems of pollution and all, but it certainly is a step in the right direction. A direction, BTW, that should have been being pursued for the last 40some years rather than newly 'discovered'.

 

[mike_v_s]

Just a reminder that the old bangers use batteries too, and those are not much less problematic on manufacture and disposal.

Also, if you want to get all disturbed about the manufacturing, you'd better start using that cell phone a lot less, as well as your PC and laptop.

Good points...and perhaps these are avenues we should start going down?

The Prius is certainly not *the* answer to the problems of pollution and all, but it certainly is a step in the right direction. A direction, BTW, that should have been being pursued for the last 40some years rather than newly 'discovered'.

I think the Prius is a very necessary step, if even to prove that alternative drivetrains can be successful.

As far as persuing it 40 years ago, i think that's a tall order. A company is only going to manufacture what it thinks it can sell. The greater the probability that the product will sell, the greater chance it has of going to market. 40 years ago turbines and a few other experimental engines were considered. The bottom line was the bottom line. If all of the car companies are turning a handsome profit making cars with engine configurations that are easy to come by...where's the incentive the spend money on product development for a car that doesn't fit the current consumer demand?

Not that it's been touched on yet, but a favorite here is the conspiracy that GM killed the electric car in early 1990's. I blame the consumer. Each and every time. We buy what we want, not necessarily what we need.

Mike

Mike

 

[popinfresh]

Good points...and perhaps these are avenues we should start going down?

I think the Prius is a very necessary step, if even to prove that alternative drivetrains can be successful.

As far as persuing it 40 years ago, i think that's a tall order. A company is only going to manufacture what it thinks it can sell. The greater the probability that the product will sell, the greater chance it has of going to market. 40 years ago turbines and a few other experimental engines were considered. The bottom line was the bottom line. If all of the car companies are turning a handsome profit making cars with engine configurations that are easy to come by...where's the incentive the spend money on product development for a car that doesn't fit the current consumer demand?

Not that it's been touched on yet, but a favorite here is the conspiracy that GM killed the electric car in early 1990's. I blame the consumer. Each and every time. We buy what we want, not necessarily what we need.

Mike

Mike

Nice double sig

FWIW, you can't really blame the industry for the lack of development IMO. In Australia, when Ford Aus dropped their V8's completely for EFI inline sixes there was an uproar amoungst consumers because they couldn't get their big V8.
The American car industry, jeeze, imagine if Chev or Ford started heading to hybrids/electric many years ago.. Wouldn't have ended good for them.

These warning signs of global warming/enviromental disaster have been around for YEARS, did anyone care? No.

IMO YMMV etc etc

Edit: Wasn't neccesarily refering to your post Mike, just this discussion in general.

 

[anniemcu]

Good points...and perhaps these are avenues we should start going down?

Yes. We (my family) have been doing some of it for a long time. We could do more, and are working on it.

I think the Prius is a very necessary step, if even to prove that alternative drivetrains can be successful.

As far as persuing it 40 years ago, i think that's a tall order. A company is only going to manufacture what it thinks it can sell. The greater the probability that the product will sell, the greater chance it has of going to market. 40 years ago turbines and a few other experimental engines were considered. The bottom line was the bottom line. If all of the car companies are turning a handsome profit making cars with engine configurations that are easy to come by...where's the incentive the spend money on product development for a car that doesn't fit the current consumer demand?

Not that it's been touched on yet, but a favorite here is the conspiracy that GM killed the electric car in early 1990's. I blame the consumer. Each and every time. We buy what we want, not necessarily what we need.

Mike

Mike

To quote K in Men in Black, "A person is smart. People are dumb ..." Most people buy what they "think" they want, or more accurately, what they are sold, and that is generally 'a bill of goods'. We've gotten so used to being ripped off that we hardly expect anything else anymore. And, we buy what we're told is popular, not what we've taken the time to research and weigh. We *want*, and we want it now! We generally need a whole lot less.

Had 'real' money been put into alternative energy research and development way back when we first found out we couldn't afford to keep using gas, we'd have been a lot further along than the Prius!

At least now we're finally seeing progress, but it's not hard to argue that we may be a bit late on the changes.

 

[anniemcu]

...
These warning signs of global warming/enviromental disaster have been around for YEARS, did anyone care? No....

Sure. A lot of folks cared. Just not enough of them in a position to do something more widespread in scope. So. We go on from this point.

 

[hbarcat]

The greatest advancements in efficiency for the internal combustion engine over the past century have been in the areas of fuel injection (as compared to carburetion) and in electronic sensors and computer control of fuel delivery (as compared to analog sensors and mechanical control).

It's instructive to note that there have been many different types of fuel injection on engines commonly available even going back to the 1920's. They were widespread by the 60's and 70's even though most vehicles still used carburetors and this is so because even after decades of development by companies such as GM and Mercedes Benz (and many others) it was still no more efficient than carburetors and the complexity of fuel injection made it more of a pain in the butt than useful.

It wasn't until the 80's that most automakers around the world switched over to fuel injection and this was only because the newly widespread availability of electronic engine control modules finally made fuel injection viable. It certainly wasn't because fuel injection was being ignored until that point by a bunch of stubborn car manufacturers. Even so, it took another decade until the mid 90's when computer controlled engine management systems became truly reliable. Vehicles from the late 80's and early 90's from all manufacturers had problems with their early EFI systems.

My favorite example of this is the infamous Cadillac L62 engine of 1981 for which GM had the noble goal of using cutting edge mechanical and electronic technology to achieve greater fuel efficiency by having cylinders "intelligently" shut down under partial throttle. A great idea on paper and there seemed to be no practical reason why it couldn't be built and made to operate successfully. But the plan was doomed from the start because it was too unreliable and it would necessarily require a few years (at least) of extensive use on the roadways to iron out the bugs and make it worthwhile. The public hated it because the technology wasn't up to the task of doing what it was being asked to do (and being advertised to do) and the engine was canceled not merely for lack of sales but because the whole thing had become a fiasco and it was hurting the reputation of the once highly respected Cadillac.

The point is, J. Q. Public (and sometimes businesses) think that you can just throw a pile of money at a problem and develop whole new technologies to solve them overnight and rush them to market and you get a big payoff in a couple of years. Hybrid drives are vastly more complex than anything else on the road and the reality is they aren't currently viable from a consumer standpoint unless they are publicly subsidized. If they weren't, the price of these things would be many thousands of dollars more in the showrooms and they would have few buyers, or else Toyota would have to cut production costs which would make the complex technology a lot less reliable and that would inevitably lead to public rejection.

 

[JansenW]

Here's an interesting site about Prius problems.

Invalid Link Removed

Looks like they have rather expensive electrical and transmission problems.

Of course, they only take complaints.

 

[hbarcat]

It appears as if the Toyota has some significant problems with the Drive-by-wire throttle control and the computer controlled HSD transaxle technology. Like I posted above, this is complex technology and it will take a few years to work out the glitches. In the meantime, a certain percentage of Prius owners will be stuck with cars they hate.


But don't they say that the pioneers take the arrows?

 

[Tsal]

I rented a Skoda Octavia (Passat TDI rebadged) in France a few years ago and probably got close to 50mpg. I couldn't believe how little diesel that thing used in two days of driving through the Loire Valley.

My work car is a tiny Toyota Yaris with a 1.4TDI. Manufacturer claims 47 MPG urban, 65 MPG highway. It has only an 8 gallon tank, too, but it doesn't feel small - except when refueling!