Double Bass 3/4 vs 4/4 gauges- is there a difference?

[William Hoffman]

Isn't it the case that most Jazz players use 3/4 basses - whereas in orchestras, they go for bigger basses with more acoustic volume, as Jazz players often amplify?

I saw a performance of a piece written for Dave Holland and orchestra and what struck me was how small his bass looked next to the orchestra basses - but he was amplified and they were not!

Sounds logical, Bruce. But I don't know if you can generalize from logic and be factually correct at the same time.

What size do you play? One of my basses is definitely a 3/4. My second bass was said (by the Luthier who made both basses) to also be a 3/4, but it is quite a bit bigger than the first and requires a "7/8" Mooradian bag.

I saw Dave Holland perform in Luzern. He was travelling. His Czech-Ez looked very small, like a 1/2. I assume you didn't see that one...

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Isn't it the case that most Jazz players use 3/4 basses - whereas in orchestras, they go for bigger basses with more acoustic volume, as Jazz players often amplify?

I saw a performance of a piece written for Dave Holland and orchestra and what struck me was how small his bass looked next to the orchestra basses - but he was amplified and they were not!

Speaking about 3/4 as it relates to TI strings, we're talking about string length, not body sizes. These can be two distinct things with basses, 3/4 bodies with 41"-43.5" SLs is common. Orchestra basses tend to be larger bodied for more acoustic sound. I think it's fair to say that most of the large bodied basses made today though have more reasonable SLs, 41-42". The older basses could have 42-45" unless they have been altered.

I think the greater numbers of 3/4 basses in the market make it more likely that they are being used in all styles of music more than larger basses.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

What size do you play? One of my basses is definitely a 3/4. My second bass was said (by the Luthier who made both basses) to also be a 3/4, but it is quite a bit bigger than the first and requires a "7/8" Mooradian bag.

Sounds like your larger bass is more of a 7/8 bass then. Measure the back lengths, Over 44" (I think) and you've got a 7/8.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Kind of tying into the whole discussion about adjusters and Europe vs. in the states, but it seems to me that if you have adjusters on your bass, the question of 3/4 vs. 4/4 strings is even less of an issue; with adjusters, if you want more tension, you raise the strings a little, and if you want less, you lower them a little. The thing that would make the 3/4 strings more desirable to me is if they were thicker, which several folks had implied they would be.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

the question of 3/4 vs. 4/4 strings is even less of an issue; with adjusters, if you want more tension, you raise the strings a little, and if you want less, you lower them a little.

Yes, exactly. I think I left that out of my adjuster promo, and it is one of the things I often use adjusters for, especially when fatigued and I need a little less tension.

 

[MostroDB]

Chris,
apologies for nagging, but regardless how you view height adjusters and the way they smell, one thing they will not do for you is raise the tension in the strings - unless you want to tune your strings to a higher pitch. There is a very simple relationship between pitch, tension, length and linear density of a(n idealised) string, and the distance from the fingerboard does not enter that relationship...

 

[William Hoffman]

Speaking about 3/4 as it relates to TI strings, we're talking about string length, not body sizes. These can be two distinct things with basses, 3/4 bodies with 41"-43.5" SLs is common. Orchestra basses tend to be larger bodied for more acoustic sound. I think it's fair to say that most of the large bodied basses made today though have more reasonable SLs, 41-42"...

I've always been confused by the terms "3/4" and "4/4" in reference to the size of bass. These terms seem to be either unclear or are just used in a sloppy way, although luthiers I've talked know what the measurements are and mean, as you point out, Eric, with regard to the length of the back. I guess it gets confusing because the same terms are used with regard to string length, 106 cm being 3/4 string length and 110 cm being 4/4 string length. Body size and string length are two different things going by the same names.

Sounds like your larger bass is more of a 7/8 bass then. Measure the back lengths, Over 44" (I think) and you've got a 7/8.

The back of my Gruenert is 115,2 cm (or 45"), making it a 7/8 then. Thanks Eric. Gruenert has his measurement online. Invalid Link Removed

...The thing that would make the 3/4 strings more desirable to me is if they were thicker, which several folks had implied they would be.

Since the 3/4 size has a shorter playing length, it would have to have more mass, i.e., be thicker, wouldn't it?

 

[iiipopes]

Since the 3/4 size has a shorter playing length, it would have to have more mass, i.e., be thicker, wouldn't it?

All other things being equal, to have the same tension, a string on a shorter scale would have to have more mass, varying inversely as the square of each.

But nothing else is equal: flexibility, texture of the outer wrap, internal construction, etc., all go to how a string will "feel." So "feel" and tension are not the same thing, but tension specs can get you into the ballpark of manageable range of strings to consider.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Chris,
apologies for nagging, but regardless how you view height adjusters and the way they smell, one thing they will not do for you is raise the tension in the strings - unless you want to tune your strings to a higher pitch. There is a very simple relationship between pitch, tension, length and linear density of a(n idealised) string, and the distance from the fingerboard does not enter that relationship...

Sorry, I should have said "perceived tension of the setup", which raising and lowering the strings will definitely affect.

 

[MostroDB]

Well, yes, if you raise your strings you have to push them down harder before they stick to the fb.

Anyway, the other thing that was raised was using heavier (3/4) strings to get a bit more tension, or lighter strings (4/4) to get less, or longer/shorter scales, and that's in the spreadsheet posted above. You may have to fiddle a bit (no pun intended) with the addresses, but I think it may answer quite a few issues raised in this tread.

If the linear density stays equal, heavier strings are thicker. But steel strings often have a higher density than synthetic or gut, so they may be thinner, yet still heavier. Confused? You will be after the next episode of ...

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Well, yes, if you raise your strings you have to push them down harder before they stick to the fb.

There's that, but for a 99% pizz player, the "perceived tension" issue mostly involves my right hand, as my left hand can press down the strings at heights where my right hand cannot handle plucking them. If the strings are too low, they feel loose and floppy and I can't dig under them well enough to pull a big acoustic sound. When I raised them, they feel stiffer and my sound immediately becomes bigger and more "pointed" on the front of the note. Not sure what the physics behind this feeling are, but it's undeniable and real in my case.

 

[drurb]

There's that, but for a 99% pizz player, the "perceived tension" issue mostly involves my right hand, as my left hand can press down the strings at heights where my right hand cannot handle plucking them. If the strings are too low, they feel loose and floppy and I can't dig under them well enough to pull a big acoustic sound. When I raised them, they feel stiffer and my sound immediately becomes bigger and more "pointed" on the front of the note. Not sure what the physics behind this feeling are, but it's undeniable and real in my case.

This describes rather precisely my experience as well.

 

[iiipopes]

There's that, but for a 99% pizz player, the "perceived tension" issue mostly involves my right hand, as my left hand can press down the strings at heights where my right hand cannot handle plucking them. If the strings are too low, they feel loose and floppy and I can't dig under them well enough to pull a big acoustic sound. When I raised them, they feel stiffer and my sound immediately becomes bigger and more "pointed" on the front of the note. Not sure what the physics behind this feeling are, but it's undeniable and real in my case.

It's geometry, not physics. Over the scale length, if you raise the bridge 1 mm, then at the octave, the strings are only raised 1/2 mm, in 2nd or 3rd position they're only raised 1/4 to 1/3 mm, and by the time you get up to the nut in 1/2 or 1st position, the increased elevation of the string is so small as to not be noticable.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The TI Spiros were originally made for large orchestra basses. These instruments often use a low B string (at least in europe) where they need a larger body and a larger string scale.
The Belcanto is more of a soloist string. These players don't need low notes, large instruments and long scales.

String manufacturers make the strings for the market, no or very small market, no strings.

Spiros are the only string I know, that exist in different versions for 3/4 and 4/4 basses. Other strings may fit a longer scale instrument but get more tension because of that.

If you tune your 3/4 bass a half tone up it is not as pleasant to play than in normal tuning, but this is the tension a 110cm scale instrument has when using the standard (3/4) strings compared to a normal 105cm 3/4 instrument.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

It's geometry, not physics. Over the scale length, if you raise the bridge 1 mm, then at the octave, the strings are only raised 1/2 mm, in 2nd or 3rd position they're only raised 1/4 to 1/3 mm, and by the time you get up to the nut in 1/2 or 1st position, the increased elevation of the string is so small as to not be noticable.

The TI Spiros were originally made for large orchestra basses. These instruments often use a low B string (at least in europe) where they need a larger body and a larger string scale.
The Belcanto is more of a soloist string. These players don't need low notes, large instruments and long scales.

String manufacturers make the strings for the market, no or very small market, no strings.

Spiros are the only string I know, that exist in different versions for 3/4 and 4/4 basses. Other strings may fit a longer scale instrument but get more tension because of that.

If you tune your 3/4 bass a half tone up it is not as pleasant to play than in normal tuning, but this is the tension a 110cm scale instrument has when using the standard (3/4) strings compared to a normal 105cm 3/4 instrument.

I believe you both, and would never dream of arguing the science of it. My point was simply that I know what "perceived stiffness/tension" feel I want from my bass, and can get it from most strings by adjusting the height up or down, which produces the sound and feel I'm looking for. If I ordered strings that were a little less tense than I wanted, I'd naturally raise them a little until they felt the way I want them to. Likewise if they felt too tight, I'd lower them a little. It's a personal taste thing - no offense to anyone else's sensibilities.

 

[iiipopes]

The TI Spiros were originally made for large orchestra basses. These instruments often use a low B string (at least in europe) where they need a larger body and a larger string scale.
The Belcanto is more of a soloist string. These players don't need low notes, large instruments and long scales.

String manufacturers make the strings for the market, no or very small market, no strings.

Spiros are the only string I know, that exist in different versions for 3/4 and 4/4 basses. Other strings may fit a longer scale instrument but get more tension because of that.

If you tune your 3/4 bass a half tone up it is not as pleasant to play than in normal tuning, but this is the tension a 110cm scale instrument has when using the standard (3/4) strings compared to a normal 105cm 3/4 instrument.

Superflexibles and a few others come in both 4/4 and 3/4. But you're right: by contrast, for example, all of D'Addario's Helicores are for 106.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I saw Dave Holland perform in Luzern. He was travelling. His Czech-Ez looked very small, like a 1/2. I assume you didn't see that one...

No - I have seen other players like Michael Formanek play those and know what they look like!

 

[MostroDB]

Chris, drurb, on the pizz digging: yes, agreed, for a big sound you need to be able to grab the strings well, hence some distance between the fb and the strings (clearance). But that has everything to do with plucking technique, not with tension in the strings, which I thought was the topic of this tread.

On that, and on the valid points made by iiipopes on geometry, you should consider optimising your fingerboard for pizzicato. A fb that is straighter will provide more clearance in the plucking area, while still be light on the left hand higher up the neck. For that latter reason it would be preferable to a more curved fb in combination with a bridge height set to get the same clearance in the plucking area. (I did this with the latest fb I shaped & I'm chuffed with it.)

Obviously the downside of more clearance in the plucking area is that thumb positions get to be harder. So there's a subjective choice to be made, and I guess that's what Chris is talking about. And yes, adjusters may help you in arriving at the compromise you like best (for those strings).

But ideally you should then also be adjusting the straightness of your fingerboard. That can be done, people do it in the guitar & bass guitar world all the time. You would use your bridge height adjusters to set you string height at the octave level to your liking, and then your fingerboard adjuster to set your string height near the end of the fb. Sounds spiffing, but I don't need it.

 

[William Hoffman]

Is everybody perceiving tension? I mean, well.. anybody? I always thought when I raised the adjusters, the bass just got a bit louder. Not from tension but from more clearance and room to bloom... Seriously, Chris, you should think about trying some good guts.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Is everybody perceiving tension? I mean, well.. anybody?

I would say 'Yes' - when I changed from steel strings to Velvets it was a huge difference in feel and I have never gone back!