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34" 5-string: anti-floppy B query

#41
Solarmist said:
The string type, and gauge have everything to do with "flop"
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Yeah, I think it's more to do with strings than anything else. As for the tight neck pocket / stiff neck theory, I just don't buy it. Unless the neck is so bad it's constantly moving everytime you pluck a note I don't see how this could affect 'floppiness' (is that a real word?:eyebrow:).

I also think it's much more about string quality than scale length. The very best B string I've heard is a 128 guage LaBella (Slappers are the very best but hard rocking steels are also nice). Much better than any 135 I've tried. I also think that the thicker a string gets, the less usable it is higher up the neck, with all sorts of nasty overtones.

As for a tight sound, plucking softer will help, as will having pickups in the 'turbo' position closer to the bridge which emphasizes the low mids. Think Smith, Roscoe, Stingray, all of which have great sounding 'tight' B strings. In my opinion, scale length will give more tension, but it's only one part of the equation.
 
#42
If memory serves, Leo Fender himself stated that string tension was a function of the string and the stability (stiffness) of the endpoints.

That said, I'm positive the angled headstock makes no impact at all - my RBX375 has a floppier B string than my J&D RM6 - and the RBX even has a thicker B.
 
#43
IME, the feeling of tightness can be increased by increasing neck relief and / or saddle height. I intentionally set the action of the B string higher than the E. Now that I understand how to set up a bass better, I can dial in a better B string feel. And brand of B string makes a big difference. On my Sadowsky RV5, Labella and Sadowsky Bs seem to do the trick.
 
#45
A major factor that I've also found is simply the physical factors of where the plucking hand is anchored in relation to the bridge as well as the general position of the fretting hand.

I have an Essex JB fiver with a thinner neck that forces me to play in the classical position. For some reason it just makes more sense physically for me to play that way than wrapping my thumb around and I find that when I fret the low B I'm forced to fret it in a manner that allows for a more effective contact with my fingers.

Now, I can do this with my G&L L-1505, but with a fatter neck it's more work. But when I discipline myself I find I get the same results.

I do think that "floppiness" is in some regards the result of very small factors in teh way that we play and react to the physical aspect of the instrument.
 
#46
My opinion, the factors in descending order:

1) String construction
2) Amp's inability to handle low notes
3) break angle at the nut.
4) construction of the bass
5) scale length

I have a 35" scale wenge bass that's solid as a rock. I put a Cleartone low B on the bass and it was the floppiest B string I've ever played. But the same bass with Slinky's or any DR string has a very tight low B. Diameter was the same. Instrument construction is less and less of an issue as build quality of eve the cheapest instrument increases. I played a Squirer 5 string that cost ~$250 and it had a great low B. The electronics sucked, but that's another story.

With number 3, you need to have the string well anchored at the nut. It's going to be anchored at the bridge but with less tension on the low B and it's increased mass, if it's not solid at the nut it will "flop" a bit.
 
#47
I prefer 34" scale to 35". On my Washburn 34" scale 5 string the B string isn't any more "floppy" than on any other 5 string I've had.

Something to consider is that because of it's size, a B string is just going to vibrate more than the other strings. The E string will vibrate and be more floppy that the A and the A more than the D and the D more than the G.

What I've found is that hex core strings are tighter than round core. All of my strings could be round core, but I always use hex core "B" strings.

Regardless, the single most important factor in controlling floppiness of the B string is the player. B strings are just inherently more floppy due to their size so one has to account for that. I could be hammering away on all my other strings, but when I hit my B string I just HAVE TO back off a bit. You can talk all day and night about what scale or what strings are better to control a floppy B string, but it still comes down to the player...EVERY time.
 
#48
mrpackerguy said:
This has sort of been hit on above, but it seems to me on the 34" scale 5'ers I play and have played, that higher tension and roundwound strings = least floppiness, and more low B clarity.
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On my ATK305, which is 34" scale, I use a D'Addario XL .135 -KILLER B, no flop, sounds/plays as nice as any 35" scale bass I've tried. The tension is high, the string very taut, just how I like it. The B is now well integrated with the other strings (.105-.50) in both feel and tone.

Used a .125 - yuck. .130 wasn't bad.

YMMV - it isn't just GAUGE that affects this - string contruction too - D'Addario Pro Steels as Stainless Steel and have less tension than the XLs which are nickel. And Fender nickels had less tension than both. ALL were the same gauge. D'Addario actually prints the tension in lbs on their packaging - all I know is their tensions are on the higher end regardless of gauge, which I love, but others may not.

Good luck.

J
 
#49
cybersnyder said:
2) Amp's inability to handle low notes
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This is what I'm talking about. I thought my Rumblefish 5L's B was, inexplicably, just a shade on the floppy side. This is when I was playing it through an LMII into an Avatar B210. Then one day I swapped out the Avatar cab for an Aguilar GS212 and suddenly there was no more floppiness.

It was a wow moment for me. I thought: "so this is what a B string is supposed to sound like."

The fact that it now sounded right also made it feel more right. IMO there is a complex interplay between the sound and the feel of an instrument.
 
#50
PSPookie said:
Double Agent's post makes sense to me. The headstock angle and moving the tuner won't do anything to change the peceived tension on the B.

IMO/IME on a well-built instrument the perception of a 'floppy' B has more to do with the strings and the amp than 34" vs 35" scale.
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+1

The strings that came with my custom Vadim 6 were really light - the B, even at a 35" scale seemed a tad floppy (my own fault really, I asked for super light strings). I slapped on a pair of DR Black beauties with a .125 B string and DAMN is that B tight and punchy now!.
 
#53
stiff neck is huge, when you pull a huge string lke that, how much the neck gives and then recovers has a huge impact on the vibration that occurs. neck joint and bridge probably make up for some, neck stiffness seems huge for me.

then there is 34 vs 35. If you meet the stiff neck, good joint/bridge thing, then a god 34 will feel different than a good 35. They will probably sound different as well, terms like 'piano like clarity' and all that start coming to mind.

But, if both are good, then 34 vs 35 becomes a personal preference, as certainly you can use either. There just ends up being differences that you can tell, but I don't buy the one better than the other thing. That comes mostly into play with the initial factors mentioned.

of course, strings make a difference as well.
 
#54
Belka said:
As for the tight neck pocket / stiff neck theory, I just don't buy it. Unless the neck is so bad it's constantly moving everytime you pluck a note I don't see how this could affect 'floppiness' (is that a real word?:eyebrow:).
Click to expand...

The neck vibrates. It vibrates in reaction to the vibration of the string. Those vibrations then double back on the vibrations of the string--waves go both ways, and the result is usually either resonance or damping. When we hear a note it's not just one wavelength, but many, so the tone we perceive as tight or unfocused is the result of an extended series of wavelengths that are being interfered-with by the responding waves from the neck and body.

And yes, "floppiness" is a word in English. :)

It's worth observing that most people in this thread have an opinion based on their own personal observations, and that those opinions are all very different! So even personal observation does not prove anything sometimes.
 
#56
bongomania said:
The neck vibrates. It vibrates in reaction to the vibration of the string. Those vibrations then double back on the vibrations of the string--waves go both ways, and the result is usually either resonance or damping. When we hear a note it's not just one wavelength, but many, so the tone we perceive as tight or unfocused is the result of an extended series of wavelengths that are being interfered-with by the responding waves from the neck and body.

And yes, "floppiness" is a word in English. :)

It's worth observing that most people in this thread have an opinion based on their own personal observations, and that those opinions are all very different! So even personal observation does not prove anything sometimes.
Click to expand...

Yes, I realise this, but I'm still not sure how a stiffer neck equates to a tighter (for want of a better word) B. Let's say I have a custom bass with a thin neck and ebony fretboard that needs lots of adjustment when there are changes in temperature / humidity. Then I have a bassball bat thick composite neck which never ever moves. Ok, so from the point of view of convenience neck 2 is better. From the point of view of playability neck 1 is better for most people.

But can anyone actually explain how the series of extended wavelengths from the less stable thin wood neck produce a floppier B than the series of extended wavelengths from the graphite bassball bat? How? What inherent damping / amplifying qualities does one have that the other doesn't?

Of course, both necks will sound different. I fully realise that woods colour the sound and the different materials would obviously produce different tones, but unless someone can scientifically prove that stiff neck = tight B I'll reserve judgement.

Upright basses have ridiculously stiff necks but very floppy E strings; of course, I know that other major factors such as scale length and string construction play a role here, but you see my point.
 
#58
Belka said:
can anyone actually explain how the series of extended wavelengths from the less stable thin wood neck produce a floppier B than the series of extended wavelengths from the graphite bassball bat? How? What inherent damping / amplifying qualities does one have that the other doesn't?

Upright basses have ridiculously stiff necks but very floppy E strings; of course, I know that other major factors such as scale length and string construction play a role here, but you see my point.
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But with a DB you have to see that the scale length is about 1/3 longer than BG scale, and the string construction completely different, so the comparison falls apart.

All else being equal, the stiffer neck will not vibrate with as much amplitude as the more flexible neck, so the resulting response waves will have much less effect on the waves of the string.

To be clear, I am not asserting that I have any proof that this is some kind of law or undeniable truth--just explaining how it would work.
 
#59
ishouldbeking said:
pardon my ignorance (i'm a four-string boy), but out of curiosity, does stringing through-body help at all? I've seen a number of higher-end 5 strings with a single string-through ferrule for the B-string while the rest of the strings are top-loaded through the bridge. Is this meant to prevent floppiness or is there another purpose?
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I personally can't tell any sonic difference whatsoever on my L2500. It sounds exactly the same strung through body or top-loaded.

So I always top load for no other reason than regular long scale strings, available everywhere, are long enough.

Personally, I wish they'd get rid of the through-body option and put screws in the holes like on the older models. It's slightly unnerving to have the whole bridge held on with only 2 screws (even tho there's a tongue underneath that sits firmly against the wood in the route underneath). And there's no sonic difference either way, 35" scale strings are hard to find, etc....

LS

LS
 
#60
I think it must be the strings... But I'll tell ya - I've played numerous 5 string Fenders and they all felt REALLY floppy to me - My 34" Zon? TIGHT! Why? I dunno. I have used Zon nickle strings, DR nickle high-beams and DR stainless low-rides (that's what's on it now) and it feel dandy with any of the above.

NOTE: I highly recommend you do NOT go with 35" - not just the reach, but you fingers may well get confused moving between your 5 and your 4 string (if you're lame like me!)
 

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