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34" 5-string: anti-floppy B query

#21
Without going into the actual physics of it (which has been discussed ad nauseum here for years), I do find one thing personally interesting:

Every bass I've tried that has a tight low B with a .135 string still has a clear, tight low B string with a .120. Every bass I've tried with a poor, muddy .125 low B still has a poor, muddy low B with a .135.

This goes for every scale length I've seen. It's not that string gauge (& linear mass) or scale length don't have anything to do with it- they do- but I've never seen a situation made or broken with a string gauge swap.
 
#23
The tension along the string is just a function of mass per unit length, frequency and length.

The stiffness of the string as it flexes is related to the bending moment of the cross section so a hex core will feel stiffer than a round core.

Both of these depend on theoretical models assuming fully clamped conditions at the ends. In other words check to see that you have good contact at the bridge saddle (this is typically adjusted by switching between bridge-mount and through-body mount) and at the nut (this means that the slot is cut to the right diameter and you have a) a string retainer, b) and angled head, c) enough windings on the peg d) all of the above). If you do not have enough downward pressure on one of them you will be loosing energy to the other portions of the string. The last part of this is that the stiffer the neck/body parts connecting the nut and saddle the closer you approach ideal conditions and minimize losses.
 
#24
I have a G&L L2500 Tribute which has a 34" scale. I have no problems with a floppy B but I string through the body, I'm using hex-core flats, and the neck pocket is deep and the neck is attached to the body with 6 screws. All things to consider when trying to get a tight B out of a 34" scale bass.
 
#25
pardon my ignorance (i'm a four-string boy), but out of curiosity, does stringing through-body help at all? I've seen a number of higher-end 5 strings with a single string-through ferrule for the B-string while the rest of the strings are top-loaded through the bridge. Is this meant to prevent floppiness or is there another purpose?
 
#26
ishouldbeking said:
pardon my ignorance (i'm a four-string boy), but out of curiosity, does stringing through-body help at all? I've seen a number of higher-end 5 strings with a single string-through ferrule for the B-string while the rest of the strings are top-loaded through the bridge. Is this meant to prevent floppiness or is there another purpose?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure whether it helps with the floppyness, but it sure does add to sustain!
 
#28
Angus said:
Without going into the actual physics of it (which has been discussed ad nauseum here for years), I do find one thing personally interesting:

Every bass I've tried that has a tight low B with a .135 string still has a clear, tight low B string with a .120. Every bass I've tried with a poor, muddy .125 low B still has a poor, muddy low B with a .135.

This goes for every scale length I've seen. It's not that string gauge (& linear mass) or scale length don't have anything to do with it- they do- but I've never seen a situation made or broken with a string gauge swap.
Click to expand...

That's probably true to an extent. I think great basses can probably have a .120B, but when going that thin for the B, a light touch is typically necessary. My personal criteria for the B string is that I should be able to hit it like an E string and sound right. Yes, this is somewhat unreasonable, but I have a medium light touch and some nice basses that facilitate my strict tastes.

ishouldbeking said:
pardon my ignorance (i'm a four-string boy), but out of curiosity, does stringing through-body help at all? I've seen a number of higher-end 5 strings with a single string-through ferrule for the B-string while the rest of the strings are top-loaded through the bridge. Is this meant to prevent floppiness or is there another purpose?
Click to expand...

I've had a few basses that could be top loaded or strung through and it really didn't make much of an impact, although one particular bass of mine was a tad too long for the strings when I ran the B through the body, thus resulted in flop because the taper came beyond the nut.

LCMBassist said:
Higher gauge string.
Click to expand...

Sure.....but adding tension can only go so far. Strings have a certain sweet spot and if you exceed a certain amount of tension, you'll start developing overtones on strings when you move up the neck. My Conklin is 35" scale, has amazing construction, and a .127 taper wound string. Thinner? I know. In this particular case, it's more or less the perfect string for the bass since I have great low end definition and the B string is actually usable at the 15th position, which I haven't encountered very many times.
 
#29
My warwick thumb BO has a cracking low B that is only a 34" scale. But, this has a huge, solid 5 piece (?) neck, solid joint, and huge bridge. The bridge is also a 2 piece design too, but I'm not sure how much of an influence that is. The warwick strings, that I have used for years on this bass have a taper core on the B. Again, I'm not sure that it reduces floppiness that much, but I reckon it does improve the tone somewhat, reduces the mud, which gives a tighter sound.

I'm currently using a .130" B, which is just at tight as the .135", but I do however think that gauge has large impact on tension. It is for this reason that I use a .043 - .11 set on my d-tuner equipped 4 strings.
 
#30
My experience definitely sides with those who say the rigidity of the neck and the join at the neck pocket make the biggest difference in perceived floppiness. Second to that is the construction of the strings themselves. I have experimented with different scale lengths, different string gauges, thru-body vs. thru-bridge stringing, etc. and none of those made a difference that I could consistently perceive. Whereas choosing strings that were themselves less pliable, along with a more rigid neck/joint, consistently caused a significant difference even when the other factors (like scale length) seemed to go against the usual claims. Again I am not talking about the textbook definition of string tension, but perceived floppiness of the string or lack of focus in the tone.
 
#31
I'm always interested by this topic. What does "floppy" mean? It sounds like a "feel" thing, but I suspect it may be an audible thing.

I've played a number of instruments with various numbers of strings, and don't think I've really found a 5+ string bass with a B string I would describe as "floppy." So I think I don't understand what "floppy" is.

What I have found is this: the B string rarely matches the tonal qualities of the other strings. A few examples:

1) I have a Fender Jazz V (34") with a GREAT B string. Too great, though. It is louder and fuller than all the other strings, requires a different touch, and still sounds like canon fire at an ACDC concert most of the time. This is the first five that was my #1 full-time gigging bass, and I didn't realize at the time how much this affected (hurt) my learning to use a five string bass.

2) I used a US Peavey something (Koa Dyna, maybe? 34") five string. It played great, and the tonal quality of the B string was close enough to the others, but no matter what, the B string was MUCH quieter than the other strings. I tried various adjustments to the pickups, different strings, etc., but concluded it was the bass and quit using it.

3) I currently have a Dingwall ABI as my primary five string bass. It is the most even sounding bass string to string, note to note, that I've ever seen, played, or heard. I have no idea if this has to do with scale length, neck stiffness, bridge mass, headstock angle, pickup positions, or current barometric pressure, for that matter. Even so, I tend to shift my right hand slightly toward the bridge when I play the B string (in relationship to where I pluck the E and the A strings). This helps make the tonal consistency from string to string as close to perfect as I can imagine.

Do any of these qualify as "floppy?" If so, I would say that even the amp and cabinets could be a factor in perceived "floppiness." Can somebody help me understand what "floppy" is? Do I need viagra?
 
#32
I have a yamaha BB605... not an expensive bass, 34" scale, single coil pickups and a nice punchy low B... thunderous in all the right ways!

in terms of physical side of the bass it has a high mass... well a big cast bridge and I'm sure that helps give all the strings their sustain and punch, the B string tuner is very close to the nut but with about 2 or 3 winds on it the B string is like i said huge and tight sounding...

An unconventional thing I noticed while adusting my bass a while back... the low B sounds bigger and more defined with the bridge pickup closer the the strings than the neck therefore a little more present even when blend pot is centred. this has given the bass a huge punchy low B and E sting response with a full sound on all strings when centred... the bridge pup is perfect for huge low B riffs and the neck has a nice full register reponse... I think this has something to do with the string's having less vibration... more perceivable "tension" nearer to the bridge and so producing a tighter sound through the pickup near the bridge to that of the neck... just a thought...

34" B's can rock! :bassist:
 
#35
abarson said:
This may be opening up old wounds, but I need to ask those who have more 5-string experience than I do.

I'm a 4-string player looking to build my own 5-string. From the 35" basses I've tried (MTD, Fender, Carvin, Ibanez, etc.) I really didn't like the extra reach. The 34" 5-strings I tried (Tobias, Pedulla, etc.) convinced me that I don't want to change scale.

But what is the secret to avoiding "floppy B syndrome"?
Is it neck stiffness?
Is it headstock angle?
Is it moving the B tuner farther away from the nut?
Is it any, all or none of the above?
Click to expand...

None of the above. Pluck closer to the bridge, preferably directly over the bridge PU if there is one. This will tighten it up nicely even on a 34" scale bass.

LS
 

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