3Leaf Audio Club - Episode 2

[jdjk7]

I like where you’re going guys, but would you actually sell one for the MSRP knowing they sell for $700-800?

Would I sell for MSRP? Maybe. Probably not. But I definitely would have no issue undercutting the overpriced market. If I can still fall below the average of what other listings have sold for, I'm doing the buyer a favor. If it's somewhere between $400 and $500 instead of $700-$800, it's still a win for me too.

As for 3Leafs as a luxury good... I tend to agree that this is what they are. I've owned my 3Leafs for a good while now, and if I'm being honest, they are not completely indispensable pedals. They are top-notch quality, to be sure. But you need to have some very specific needs in order to be able to honestly discount all of the available alternatives. And despite being "The Best" in their category, they have often been juggled on and off my board simply because there is no real "best"... there is only what will accomplish what I need them to. I've used other octavers, other filters, and other fuzzes, and in the context within which I was using those alternatives, I did not feel like the lack of 3leaf on my board felt "lesser". I use the tools that get me the sound I want, not the ones that make me feel the most satisfied looking at my board.

That's really where the difference between a functional item and a luxury item lies in this realm. If you make apples to apples comparisons-- such as the Octabvre vs other OC-2 clone circuits-- you'll really find diminishing returns as the prices go higher. Yes, the Octabvre has a more pleasing sound than many clones, but does the price match the difference in sound? At MSRP, I wouldn't call it unfair. At secondary market prices, however, it's definitely unfair. The appeal in the Octabvre and Chroma, to me, is mostly in their bells and whistles as opposed to the core quality of their effect. If you can identify a real need for all of those bells and whistles, then fair enough. But I think people tend not to be very good at comparing those two aspects when it comes to considering alternatives.

I've considered offloading my Octabvre and Chromatron for this reason*, pending that I can make sure I'm content with the boxes I replace them with.
*This is not an invitation for offers or dibs

The Doom 2 is the one that, to me, justifies itself the most. It's really a unique bass fuzz, and I've never found another quite like it.

 

[jbybj]

I see gear that I like. Can I afford it?
Yes - I buy it.
No - I move on.

Repeat ad infinitum.

I don’t see a problem.

 

[Stubb]

I don't mind the hunt. I've had four 3Leaf pedals over the years: Octabvre Mini, Doom, Wonderlove v1, and Chromatron. I've moved on to other filters, though I still think the Chromatron has the best feature set of any filter ever, basically. The Octabvre and Doom I still have but aren't currently on my board. The Doom would be hard to replace for what I use it for, and the Octabvre Mini has the best combination of form factor and sound of any octave I've heard, so I keep it for when I need it. But if I had to, I could probably replace them with a Mastotron and an OC2 and be fine.

 

[Bassgeer]

the doom 1 is a great pedal on its own and easy to dial in as well. i had no regrets paying it at a premium and i totally understand the rverb seller (infact its a fellow tber too but no need to name names) as i had alot of gigs that i was able to use it for. and alot of people has heard our music. for me, Thats enough to know the real value of it. Thank you sir. the doom still resides in my board and will continue to do so … at least for now. Cheers! View attachment 5100547

Nice board!!! Doom is my favorite pedal for sure, a 100% keeper!

 

[RJ]

Good grief this thread got dull

 

[Erithon]

100%. And the argument could be made that it is 50% the fault of buyers, because they confirm/reinforce the increased (and increasing) market values. People cite the few reverb sellers holding items at the same high prices for months/years as the norm. (i.e. This is just the price and they won't budge.) The reality is, they're the exception, and all the sellers who actually have an interest in moving gear would lower the prices until they start reaching equilibrium with what buyers will spend. This isn't a gasoline monopoly where you have to pay ridiculous prices or you can't commute to work, get groceries, and survive. Nobody is losing their livelihood by holding out on buying an overpriced pedal.

On that note, it's not like 3Leaf pedals were flooding the market when he was at peak production. Sure, you may have seen some protons or wonderloves sitting for a few weeks in the classifieds from time to time, but the prices were reasonable. That's because people weren't overhyping them, and FOMO was not in the picture because another run of his current lineups seemed inevitable. Even when hype started to build about the then-discontinued GR2 after he was on to the Wonderlove Deluxe, the most those would go for was was maybe $225ish.

One other point about that, the pushing of prices (reinforced by buyers saying 'yes' to those prices) pulled flippers into the 3Leaf market. When buyers were not willing to pay insane amounts for these pedals, there was no motive for 'middle men' to hop in and try to make a quick buck. So the insistence that "I need this now at any price" completely opens the door to that, on top of raising the prices asked by folks who owned them simply for personal use.

In my mind it boils down to it being a luxury good. Nobody with a 3Leaf pedal on their board (myself included) would perish and fail to play music well if these pedals all spontaneously combusted. We'd find suitable replacements and carry on. So there's no argument that anyone has to pay exorbitant prices for these.

Excellent post.

If 3 Leaf is a luxury item, buyers’ interest would grow as the price rises.
I am not sure that’s entirely the case.

3 Leaf pedals are identified as the best in their categories by numerous bass players. That’s where the interest comes from IMO. The lack of substitute is the reason behind the increase in demand, that is fueled by the limited release.
If I want the functionality of a Doom2, what can I get ? Well, a Doom 2. Hahah.

I could be wrong, but other pedals that have functional substitutes (compression, preamp, for example) are less demanded.
You can’t get a Pwnzor ? Ok. What about a cali76 or Empress bass comp ? You won’t lose much not having a 3 Leaf pedal this time.

I am interested in your opinion on this.

You are right about where the interest stems from. I think the Doom 2 and Octabvre MKII are the best at what they do and I'm not alone in that. The Chromatron is pretty special, too.

But you are mistaken about the definition of a luxury good. Just as a bass guitar is a musical instrument, but not all musical instruments are bass guitars so a good that increases in demand as its prices increases--a Veblen good--is a luxury good, but not all luxury goods are Veblen goods. A luxury good is not defined as something that increases in demand as its prices increases (Veblen goods are a very niche case), but as something for which demand increases beyond proportional increases in income. In short, they are purchased with disposable income. That's what Graham is talking about when he calls them a luxury good. They are not necessity goods. No one is buying Doom 2s when they cannot afford to fuel their car (assuming they have a car) or feed their children (assuming they have children), etc.

 

[darkhalf]

Nice board!!! Doom is my favorite pedal for sure, a 100% keeper!

Thank you sir! i agree the doom is such a keeper. although theres alot that sound like it, theres nothing that dooms like it. i love my doom. i think its one of the pedals thats always present or most of the time in my board. Cheers!

 

[Grahams Groove]

Lemme see if I can shift gears and tie this together. What 3Leaf stuff do you own (or previously owned), and what would be your alternate/replacement of choice if you were in a pinch, building a second board, or needed to replace those pedals? I'll give it a go from what I have/remember...

Doom/Doom 2 (have): Probably a colorsound clone or the SA multiwave/ultrawave. I use this for less for traditional synthy sounds right now, and lean into the clarity, blend, and texture. It cuts really well and doesn't get muddy the way I'm using it on my board. I probably have more flexibility in replacements because of this.

Proton 4 (have)/Chromatron: Microtron III or IV, SA C4 or Spectrum (respectively). Microtron quacks harder than the Proton/Chroma, but it's still very capable of pretty clean/precise filter vibes. You can push it into dirtier traditional mutron territory, but it's surprisingly flexible for a 3-knob 2-switch pedal.

Octabvre Mini (have): Octamizer or OC-5 (Don't like/use the kill-dry function on the MKiii.) OC will get you closer to the Octabvre vibe for obvious reasons, but the Octamizer is the most unique sounding analog octave on the market - and it rips in a mix.

Groove Reg and Wonderlove: I was able to get remarkably close to both with my C4 after a bit of tweaking. I made a C4 patch that is a dead ringer of my favorite GR2 sound/feel, and that was enough for me to flip the latter a year or two back. GRs are more bubbly/syrupy and the Wonderlove pushed into more controlled/clean territory. YMMV here.

Enabler: There are a lot of great, clean DI's with good 3+ band EQs out there. I feel like this filled a void when it was originally released, but the DI options have grown immensely. I only roll with a DI on my small board in case the backline sucks, lacks DI, etc. And that prioritizes simplicity and compactness. So I don't really have specific replacement needs and don't own an enabler any more.

PWNZOR: Don't have one any more. I replaced it with a Cali76 CB, and I liked the Cali, FEA, and Ovni comps I had as much/more. I don't think I own a comp right now, as I'm not using one on my board. I think the PWNZOR sounds great, but it was/is replaceable. His filters and fuzz are definitely more unique beasts.

LBB: Haven't had one in forever, but I would probably grab a DG Harmonic Booster if I needed something similar now. The LBB is more simple, surgical with the two fixed EQ points and a single switch, but I think I can get the same things out of the Harmonic Booster that I used the LBB for - new string zing, and a slap-friendly scoop.

 

[cosmicevan]

At this point it’s POGS (those stupid collectible plastic coins that people traded or flipped or whatever).

Whilst I find the chromatron/proton (latest version) to be the envelope sound in my head and the touch sensitivity of those pedals is exactly how I’d want it…there are ample options that get ya close enough. Chasing these unobtainable pedals is so you can have a dope board that you are proud of and enjoy playing…you can get the same sounds from other more accessible options but as hobbyists (correct me if any of y’all are making a full time living playing music that requires these pedals - and then tell me why nothing else can fill the spot), we want the gear that we want. The stuff that inspires us for whatever reasons to pick up our instruments and play and have fun.

It’s the reason that people who enjoy anything go out and buy pro gear for the pass time. It’s cool. It’s the bass player equivalent to the concept behind a blues lawyer. It’s fun to compare and experiment w really high end gear and understand the differences and then pick your faves. I think Spencer’s stuff is fantastic…I wish there wasn’t the collectibility flipper factor but it’s here and we need to learn to live w it because supply will never satiate demand. Try not to take it all so seriously maybe?

 

[fivestringgecko]

the doom 1 is a great pedal on its own and easy to dial in as well. i had no regrets paying it at a premium and i totally understand the rverb seller (infact its a fellow tber too but no need to name names) as i had alot of gigs that i was able to use it for. and alot of people has heard our music. for me, Thats enough to know the real value of it. Thank you sir. the doom still resides in my board and will continue to do so … at least for now. Cheers! View attachment 5100547

That looks like a fun board

+1 to Mistico.

Curiosity has the better of me @darkhalf - what's that black one with the bird (owl?) to the left of the Chromatron?

At this point it’s POGS (those stupid collectible plastic coins that people traded or flipped or whatever).

Nice deep cut reference... It's mostly nostalgia I'm sure, but I kind of miss Pogs for some stupid reason. lol

5sg.

 

[labeledbass]

I still want to try a MF101, but honestly the two I've been after is a Barbanera and Meatball - they've gotten up there too

 

[foal30]

I have a Proton Filter ( I think version III ) it’s been on my board for a while.

It’s a cool filter and the “best” one I’ve owned.

It does have to be ‘set’ for each individual bass though. Anyone else of this opinion?

Regardless it’s a cool piece of kit. I’ve ordered another filter from another manufacturer to try some other flavors

 

[arepa_funk]

It does have to be ‘set’ for each individual bass though. Anyone else of this opinion?

Another Proton V3 user here. Agreed about setting it up for each bass. I don't find that different from other filters tho, since bass output, pickup type and location, strings, attack, etc. all really affect how filters respond. Imo, ymmv, etc.

 

[Romain909]

I have a Proton Filter ( I think version III ) it’s been on my board for a while.

It’s a cool filter and the “best” one I’ve owned.

It does have to be ‘set’ for each individual bass though. Anyone else of this opinion?

Regardless it’s a cool piece of kit. I’ve ordered another filter from another manufacturer to try some other flavors

I have a chromatron.
Sensibility is the most important knob. If I change the dynamic before the pedal (hand position, pickup selected, eq…) I have to adapt it.

 

[Romain909]

Lemme see if I can shift gears and tie this together. What 3Leaf stuff do you own (or previously owned), and what would be your alternate/replacement of choice if you were in a pinch, building a second board, or needed to replace those pedals? I'll give it a go from what I have/remember...

Doom/Doom 2 (have): Probably a colorsound clone or the SA multiwave/ultrawave. I use this for less for traditional synthy sounds right now, and lean into the clarity, blend, and texture. It cuts really well and doesn't get muddy the way I'm using it on my board. I probably have more flexibility in replacements because of this.

Proton 4 (have)/Chromatron: Microtron III or IV, SA C4 or Spectrum (respectively). Microtron quacks harder than the Proton/Chroma, but it's still very capable of pretty clean/precise filter vibes. You can push it into dirtier traditional mutron territory, but it's surprisingly flexible for a 3-knob 2-switch pedal.

Octabvre Mini (have): Octamizer or OC-5 (Don't like/use the kill-dry function on the MKiii.) OC will get you closer to the Octabvre vibe for obvious reasons, but the Octamizer is the most unique sounding analog octave on the market - and it rips in a mix.

Groove Reg and Wonderlove: I was able to get remarkably close to both with my C4 after a bit of tweaking. I made a C4 patch that is a dead ringer of my favorite GR2 sound/feel, and that was enough for me to flip the latter a year or two back. GRs are more bubbly/syrupy and the Wonderlove pushed into more controlled/clean territory. YMMV here.

Enabler: There are a lot of great, clean DI's with good 3+ band EQs out there. I feel like this filled a void when it was originally released, but the DI options have grown immensely. I only roll with a DI on my small board in case the backline sucks, lacks DI, etc. And that prioritizes simplicity and compactness. So I don't really have specific replacement needs and don't own an enabler any more.

PWNZOR: Don't have one any more. I replaced it with a Cali76 CB, and I liked the Cali, FEA, and Ovni comps I had as much/more. I don't think I own a comp right now, as I'm not using one on my board. I think the PWNZOR sounds great, but it was/is replaceable. His filters and fuzz are definitely more unique beasts.

LBB: Haven't had one in forever, but I would probably grab a DG Harmonic Booster if I needed something similar now. The LBB is more simple, surgical with the two fixed EQ points and a single switch, but I think I can get the same things out of the Harmonic Booster that I used the LBB for - new string zing, and a slap-friendly scoop.

Very informative.

Regarding the spectrum being an alternative, I had a one before. I did not like its ergonomic, 4 knobs 8 settings, and the app is a total nonsense. It feels like the pedal was designed 15 years ago. I also wasn’t fond of the built quality.
Other than that, very easy to dial in, maybe easier than the Chromatron. Sounds good straight away, whatever you do.

I like the idea of identifying the closest alternatives to 3 Leaf pedals. I am sure it might help some of us here

 

[MisticoRitualista]

I still want to try a MF101, but honestly the two I've been after is a Barbanera and Meatball - they've gotten up there too

I have a Johnk Meatball clone, its my favorite envelope filter, also have a Barbanera, its my number 2 & a Xerograph Deluxe for manual sweeps, these three cover all the bases for my needs which is why my Chromatron is up for trade in the classifieds.

I haven't tried an original Meatball but the Johnk clone is amazing. I have compared the Barbanera with an original Moog & preferred the Barbanera. If you can find either of these, I cant recommend them enough.

 

[darkhalf]

@fivestringgecko -sir thats a limetone Focus compressor. its such a nice a compressor or a tone enhancer too our great fellow scubaduba made an aweome review on this pedal as well in a thread here at TB.(link attached) Have a good one ! Cheers! Testing Compressors: Cali, Smoothie, Empress, Diamond, Keeley, FEA, Darkglass, Doc Lloyd, JHS & more

 

[labeledbass]

I have a Johnk Meatball clone, its my favorite envelope filter, also have a Barbanera, its my number 2 & a Xerograph Deluxe for manual sweeps, these three cover all the bases for my needs which is why my Chromatron is up for trade in the classifieds.

I haven't tried an original Meatball but the Johnk clone is amazing. I have compared the Barbanera with an original Moog & preferred the Barbanera. If you can find either of these, I cant recommend them enough.

Yeah right now I use the XD for dirty stuff, Chrome for clean, express both.

I've been on the fence so many times to jump into the waiting line for a Barb, and I'm still researching about what's what on the meatball (It would be easy to clone that one and pass it off as original) - I've heard good things about the FTelettronica - used under 250

Regarding the PWNZOR, I've had a diamond, monocomp, monocle, omnicomp, Apex, empress mk1&2, ovni (op), cb76, and a Suncoast limiter. Out of those the only "colorful" comp that stayed on was the cali. After playing around with the PWNZOR I don't consider it a compressor, but more of a tone enhancer. Every now and I hear compressor traights, but at any setting (where the comp light illuminates) the tone sounds better. I eventually bought a big box TX-L for transparent duty, but the PWNZOR is the only one I can handle these, YMMV

 

[MisticoRitualista]

Yeah right now I use the XD for dirty stuff, Chrome for clean, express both.

I've been on the fence so many times to jump into the waiting line for a Barb, and I'm still researching about what's what on the meatball (It would be easy to clone that one and pass it off as original) - I've heard good things about the FTelettronica - used under 250

Regarding the PWNZOR, I've had a diamond, monocomp, monocle, omnicomp, Apex, empress mk1&2, ovni (op), cb76, and a Suncoast limiter. Out of those the only "colorful" comp that stayed on was the cali. After playing around with the PWNZOR I don't consider it a compressor, but more of a tone enhancer. Every now and I hear compressor traights, but at any setting (where the comp light illuminates) the tone sounds better. I eventually bought a big box TX-L for transparent duty, but the PWNZOR is the only one I can handle these, YMMV

I rock the Miura M2, only compressor Ive had other than an old Boss CS-2, but I've been very curious about the Cali76 TX offerings, are they worth the ridiculous prices? Is the hype for real?

 

[Romain909]

I am curious about the Cali76 TX too.
I have the Empress bass comp. Colour switch seems enough but I am curious.