410UL Series I vs. II A/B comparison

[tombowlus]

I'm looking forward to hearing the HS410 also... I bet it sounds great. Assuming you get one , I could eventually swing by on my way down 75 to one of my gigs in the 'deep South' and bring the Series II!

I'm sure it'll happen sooner or later.

 

[Vic]

I know I'm always pushing back on this...

I know, it's cool, and expected.

but prior to meeting a few of you guys on TB, I've never known any bass player (of the hundreds I know) that has ever run an amp under 4ohms.
...
Actually, two Epi310UL's is the only config that comes to mind.

...and unfortunately, this is my situation as you know. It's frustrating, because the dual 310 is the PERFECT cab config for me both tonally and logistically... just not electrically.

Virtually every other cab I know of comes in either 8 ohm (for two) or 4ohm (for single) use.

True, but what if you have a cab you got mainly for one-cab use, so you ordered it in 4 ohms, but from time to time you wanted to pair it with one or more other cabs for those bigger gigs where you want a lot more headroom? Let's face it, we're talking massive power here, so that's not an unreasonable thought.

I have read a number of posts from people who happen to own a 4ohm cab and an 8 ohm cab, and are trying to 'make it work' by getting a 2ohm minimum head, but they would not be in the market for a high end amp, or they would just swap one of the cabs out for one of the 'appropriate' impedance IMO (i.e., it seems to be more of a 'cash availability' driver than a technical need).

Actually, it makes more sense to me to have an amp that supports more configs, that can run anything you already have, than to have to purchase near dupes of your existing cabs to match impedance support limitations of a head.

Basically, I want it to be simple.

I want an amp that can support any reasonable load I want to throw at it, and IMHO, sub-4 ohm loads are reasonable.

Especially when we're talking about 1000-2000W, even if we're not talking stereo/dual channel, we're in the zone of considering professional power amps for the juice. Pretty much ALL those very safely support 2 ohms/side. There's a reason for that. Simplicity, flexibility, and reliability. I like that. Why can't we have that with bass amps?

I'm even practical about it. I don't even care if that gets me no more usable or perceivable output (other than the fact that adding speakers always increases SPL's). I just don't want to burn the head up.

Put another way, I don't want to have to shelf two of my amps because I happen to like the way a certain speaker config sounds and works for me logistically, which is my current sitch. I'd LOVE to hear my TFB through my 310 pair. I'd LOVE to hear my LMII through the 310 pair. Sorry. No can do... and IMHO, no good reason why with all the great technology out there.

 

[MacGroove]

I have read a number of posts from people who happen to own a 4ohm cab and an 8 ohm cab, and are trying to 'make it work' by getting a 2ohm minimum head, but they would not be in the market for a high end amp, or they would just swap one of the cabs out for one of the 'appropriate' impedance IMO (i.e., it seems to be more of a 'cash availability' driver than a technical need).

Does this mean that you're at least thinking about getting a UL902C for you S1 and S2 UL410's.

I don't know how I missed this thread yesterday. Thank you Ken for the honorable mention.

When you write, you write, of course you do have a way with linguistics.

I used the S2 UL410 this past weekend for an outdoor gig with great PA support and used my WW's Ultra, I wanted to see how well the WW's worked in a louder setting and it worked like a champ. The S2 has just enough smoothing through out the mid's and lower mid's compared to the S1 mid dominent voicing for the WW's to be taken out of the closet.

I've worked with this sound crew for the last 4 years at outdoor gigs and they've always loved the UL410 S1, they came up to me and said they always liked its focus, punch and throw of it. I told them that this was a new Epi UL410
cab so that proves to me that it hasn't lost any of the abilities that the S1 has. I've had no problem dialing in more of the upper mids if needed on either my amp or basses.
I could actually feel the oomph from the S2 when I use my 60's reissue jazz loaded with Fralin pu's and Sadowsky pre. So, those of you with Sadowsky's might like the S2 over the S1.
I hope your WW's Ken works for you with the S2 as did with me.

 

[KJung]

Put another way, I don't want to have to shelf two of my amps because I happen to like the way a certain speaker config sounds and works for me logistically, which is my current sitch. I'd LOVE to hear my TFB through my 310 pair. I'd LOVE to hear my LMII through the 310 pair. Sorry. No can do... and IMHO, no good reason why with all the great technology out there.

I do feel your pain, and again, what you want to do makes total sense with the two 310UL's. However, again, that is one of the very rare speaker combinations that requires an amp to operate below 4ohms. So, again, I TOTALLY get your frustration, just pointing out that my guess is very, very few have your unique situation and manufacturers would have very low motivation to alter their designs.

That being said... get a Carvin B1500 and be done with it

 

[Vic]

...very rare
...just pointing out that my guess is very, very few have your unique situation

I'd say less typical for sure, but I wouldn't go as strong as "unique" or "very rare", otherwise fewer amp vendors would support 2 ohm loads, and as we know, there is a fair amount that do... all the way up to the high end.

That being said... get a Carvin B1500 and be done with it

Well, I did consider that, but I already have the B800, and again, with me at least, it's really not about more power. At least with me, it's pretty much just about tone and reliability.

Currently, I'm driving the 310's with my Eden 405 (and the B800) and output is really not a problem. My "problem" is, it sucks that I can't also enjoy that same fantastic stack with my LMII and my TFB... two other amps I REALLY like a LOT.

 

[Vic]

Ken, noting your suspicions about the weights on these cabs, any chance you could get them weighed on a decent scale somewhere? I'm just curious.

 

[KJung]

Ken, noting your suspicions about the weights on these cabs, any chance you could get them weighed on a decent scale somewhere? I'm just curious.

All I have is the bathroom scale thing, which is not accurate at all. The S2 is definitely lighter, but just slightly so. Per our PM, I agree with your theory that the particular piece of plywood used in my particular cab might be slightly lighter than my S1. I have no way of telling if my S1 is on the heavy side of the UL410 weight range or my S2 is on the light side, though.

Again... very, very slight... they are both stupid light!

K

 

[MacGroove]

Again... very, very slight... they are both stupid light!

K

As I mentioned in a post above Ken, you have a gift for linguistics, 'stupid light'

I never weighed mine out, don't even have bathroom scale and didn't feel like driven down to the UPS store. It just feels a slight lighter to me, must be the Eminence. But like Ken says, they're both stupid light.

 

[blowinblue]

My Epi UL-410 S1 sounds so darn good I don't lust for an S2. Besides, I got no S2 money! It's my most versatile cab and dare I say (softly, so my other cabs don't hear) the one I'd choose if forced to live with only one. I would never replace the S1, but would add an S2. Really though, by adding my UL-210 (S1) on top of the 410, any reasonable volume requirements should be met. Possibly the hardest part of being a bass player is separating needs from wants. BTW, my S1 weighs a hair over 56 lbs.

M. M.

 

[KJung]

My Epi UL-410 S1 sounds so darn good I don't lust for an S2. Besides, I got no S2 money! It's my most versatile cab and dare I say (softly, so my other cabs don't hear) the one I'd choose if forced to live with only one. I would never replace the S1, but would add an S2. Really though, by adding my UL-210 (S1) on top of the 410, any reasonable volume requirements should be met. Possibly the hardest part of being a bass player is separating needs from wants. BTW, my S1 weighs a hair over 56 lbs.

M. M.

I agree... I love my original and have NO plans of selling it.

 

[KJung]

As I mentioned in a post above Ken, you have a gift for linguistics, 'stupid light'

 

[tallboybass]

My Epi UL-410 S1 sounds so darn good I don't lust for an S2. Besides, I got no S2 money! It's my most versatile cab and dare I say (softly, so my other cabs don't hear) the one I'd choose if forced to live with only one. I would never replace the S1, but would add an S2. Really though, by adding my UL-210 (S1) on top of the 410, any reasonable volume requirements should be met. Possibly the hardest part of being a bass player is separating needs from wants. BTW, my S1 weighs a hair over 56 lbs.

M. M.

I'm in the same boat as Blowinblue. It's just that, when I add my UL210 (8 ohm) to the UL410 (4 ohm), I'm running a 2.6 ohm load! I gotta side with Vic on this "below 4 ohm" issue (sorry Ken). It's something that is very limiting when trying to get a rig together. I DO run my WalkAbout below 4 ohms, but it'd be nice to have more power than that. For just this reason, I've been thinking about getting a separate power amp, but that's a hassle too.

 

[blowinblue]

Both of my UL's are 4 ohms. My solution to the ohm/volume balancing issue will be to start using my Ashly pre again with a stereo power amp. Not only will I be able to run two 4 ohm cabs at the same time, I will be able to balance perceived volume between them.

The most power I've ever put through my UL-410 is 400 watts. I can only imagine how that bad boy will light up with 800 or more watts. I'm workin' on it, y'all. Almost got Mama where I want her in my quest for a new power amp!



M. M.

 

[Bassbwithu]

Here's my solution, as I've been wanting to run a Ul-115 w/ a Ul-212. Put a AI Focus SA in your Walter Woods gig bag. Run the Woods into a 4 ohm cab, but send a signal from the effects send into the AI which can then power anything up to 2 ohms. Haven't done it yet, but should work great.

 

[KJung]

I'm in the same boat as Blowinblue. It's just that, when I add my UL210 (8 ohm) to the UL410 (4 ohm), I'm running a 2.6 ohm load! I gotta side with Vic on this "below 4 ohm" issue (sorry Ken). It's something that is very limiting when trying to get a rig together. I DO run my WalkAbout below 4 ohms, but it'd be nice to have more power than that. For just this reason, I've been thinking about getting a separate power amp, but that's a hassle too.

It would be the mighty Carvin B1500 for you... not expensive, three space but not that heavy, and enough power to drive that rig.

I guess some of you guys just play really loud. I thought I played pretty loud (many large groups and large rooms without PA support). I've never, ever, ever run out of room with 700+ watts going into a good 410 like the 410UL. And, quite frankly, not sure how much more ooomph an 8ohm 210UL will give you in the stack.

 

[Vic]

Well, Ken, noting some recent commentary, which I agree with, it's starting to seem like I'm not dealing with such a very rare or unique dilemma as you originally thought.

 

[alexclaber]

Why not run the cabs in series for a ~10 ohm nominal load? I doubt with six 10"s worth of sensitivity you'd need the extra power that a lower impedance load would draw from an amp.

Alex

 

[KJung]

Well, Ken, noting some recent commentary, which I agree with, it's starting to seem like I'm not dealing with such a very rare or unique dilemma as you originally thought.

As I posted before, plenty of this on Talkbass... just never have heard of it out in the real world in all my years of gear headed-ness and playing.

The idea that there would be a ton of people out there with impedance mismatches (8 and 4 ohm cabs) or those who purchases two 4 ohm cabs instead of two 8 ohms, etc., etc. seems like a VERY small portion of the bass community.

Again, no big deal. I'm not challenging that there aren't legitimate needs for 2 ohm operation among some players, just that it does not surprise me that many manufactures, especially higher end boutique manufactures (Epi, Glock, Walter Woods, Thunderfunk, etc.) don't seem to be that interested in providing this capability. From a pure marketing perspective, it seems like a small idea in the upper end market (which is what we are talking about).

However, in the lower end market, most Peavey heads have been 2 ohm capable for a while, and I guess that's a 'cheap' way for them to market a lot of watts to kids. I remember my old Peavey '400' that only hit 400 watts at 2 ohms... but it allowed them to call it a 400, which impressed the heck out of me at 17

Again... plenty of great 2 ohm capable heads out there, and some very good marketing/cost reasons for many others not to bother

 

[Peter Parker]

In my experience, amps being used at 2 ohms don't sound as good as the same amp at 4ohms. I don't know why this is but every amp I've used be it a PA style power amp or self contained head sounds quite a bit different at 2ohms. Harsh and compressed is the most common thing I've noticed. I believe I read that Nordschow at Eden doesn't like the sound of the WT550 pushed at 2.

 

[tombowlus]

Well, Ken, noting some recent commentary, which I agree with, it's starting to seem like I'm not dealing with such a very rare or unique dilemma as you originally thought.

+1