410UL Series I vs. II A/B comparison

[KJung]

Well, to my ears, that would make the difference between the S1 and S2 UL410 a lot more than subtle!




Well, even "standard" 410 cabs can have significantly different voicings. It's still likely that someone will prefer Eden or Ampeg or whatever to Epifani.




My solution to the 85 pound 4x10 will likely be a pair of 50 pound 2x10 cabs. I'm going to hear DooWop's HS210 cabs this evening.

+1.... on your first point, it actually is quite subtle, but it's there. Again, if you really didn't like the S1, you probably won't like the S2. However, as posted above, the subtle difference is in the direction of a more 'polite' upper mid response, which seems to be how some describe the difference between ceramic and neo cabs by the same manufacturer. Again, it seems that this 'tone profile' is being softened by the big speaker manufacturers (Eminence), for better or worse, depending on the tone you are looking for.

Second point.... of course... my point being that companies that don't keep up with the weight/tone advances are going to find more and more competition, even among those who like a lead sled/heavy cab tone. I'm surely not saying everyone will have their tone needs met by one specific cab... just commenting on the light speed advances being made in neo and switching designs recently. I think there will always be room for specialty cabs, like Andy's Acme's of some of Jim's NV cabs, or the unique sounding larger HT's with those high xmax woofers that don't seem to be available widely in neo format. However, more standard heavy designs, like 'high efficiency 410's' seem to be looking back, not forward to me.

Finally, I'm with you there. When I want hi fi and smooth, I carry a brutal 108 pounds worth of Bergantino 's' cab stack. It has a unique tone that works well IMO in some situations. However, even modular and on a cart... it's a drag when you have a long schlep, multiple stairs, etc. However, we all have to do what we have to do , and for some of my gigs where it's a more 'listening room' type gig with a small and not dense mix, it sounds really nice!

 

[figuredbass]

That's a good way to put it.... I called the S2 410UL more 'polite' in my review above (although I like the tone of the S2410UL MUCH better than the S2310UL I heard) I also agree that the S2410UL has very little of what some people describe as the 'neo' sound (i.e., pronounced mids). I, quite frankly, like that 'S1' punch, and while it doesn't sound as good played solo in the basement, it seems to really work on the gig.

That being said, the 410UL S2, with its more 'ordinary' voicing, seems to finally IMO eliminate any need to talk about 'neo' speakers. In other words, it sounds like a very good, standard 410 (to your point). No need to haul around the 90 pounders any more... none whatsoever

+1 to all points. And the neo's will just keep getting better and better (we hope!)

 

[gruuv]

Quick question for Ken. . . just out o' curiosity, where's the Thunderfunk stand nowadays with the Markbass arrivals? Are you still gigging it, and how does it like the S2 UL versus the S1 UL?

If this was already covered and I missed it, my apologies!

 

[KJung]

Quick question for Ken. . . just out o' curiosity, where's the Thunderfunk stand nowadays with the Markbass arrivals? Are you still gigging it, and how does it like the S2 UL versus the S1 UL?

If this was already covered and I missed it, my apologies!

I still love the TF. However, the Markbass stuff fits my tone goals a little better at this point. Most heads I've owned and tried that had a nice, modern treble response (e.g., iAmp, EBS350, etc.) really lacked in warm, musical mid-range punch and definition. If I had to choose between the two, I would take mid punch and definition and a little bit of warmth any day over sizzle and huge low end.

The Markbass stuff, especially the LMII, is the first head I've owned that has that extended high end and low end response if you want it, but doesn't seem to give up anything in the mid punch area. As I've posted before, I can get the LMII reasonably close in tone to the Thunderfunk, but not the other way around. Volume output at 4ohms is similar.

That being said, the Thunderfunk sounds great with both 410UL versions (which again, are more similar than different).... a little more punchy with the S1, a little wider with the S2.

K

Edit: Also, just as I find the 410UL exponentially louder and fuller sounding than the 310UL, I also find the 7 pound SD800 is exponentially louder than the Thunderfunk (and LMII). It's pretty nice to have all that headroom in this small and light of an amp. FYI, I found the Thunderfunk and Walter Woods and Focus to produce about the same total volume into a large 4ohm cab (the Walter would get louder, but there was a 'thinning' of the low end punch at very high volumes). The SD800 is quite another beast IMO and IME (as is the 902c from what I've heard for other TBers).

 

[Big String]

Ken is on the mo'neh.
I prefer the TF stand alone, but the LMII has that DB750 weight to each note in the mix for me. A head turner for sure. Wish my rack ears would get here...

 

[curt72]

hi kjung - thanks for a great review - i have read this thread through at least 5 times in order to make up my mind...

the reason being that i am now also about to pull the trigger for an epi 410 ul, and i would be very interested to hear your opinion after you had a chance to play and compare the two for a bit longer.

would you still describe the difference between them as being subtle? i am asking because i noticed in some other threads that some people seemed to have initial problems with the series 2 in finding their sound and for example needed to dial in punch via eq. now i dont know what their initial expectations were, but mine would be definitely that the ul410 is a very punchy, warm speaker with a strong mix-cutting presence, yeah, physical and three dimensional, as described above. now, how much does this hold true of the series 2? or is the change so subtle, that it does not change the basic character of this cab.

i am playing through the epi ul210 series 1 at the moment and besides that i need more volume, i just find it slightly lacking in punch and presence. i know the ul210 has a mid-scoopy reputation, but i wonder would the s2 ul410 have a tendency in this direction? then it might not be for me.

i am playing j-bass, finger style funk/pop/rock, eden wt550. unfortunately i cannot testrun the epi, because there is no distributor in my country.

i have read all threads in relation to the series1 vs.2 more than once, and i am sure the answer is there somewhere but just cant find it. i just wish i could test it before buying

thanks a million,
curt

 

[Alexander]

i am asking because i noticed in some other threads that some people seemed to have initial problems with the series 2 in finding their sound and for example needed to dial in punch via eq. now i dont know what their initial expectations were, but mine would be definitely that the ul410 is a very punchy, warm speaker with a strong mix-cutting presence, yeah, physical and three dimensional, as described above. now, how much does this hold true of the series 2?

I haven't tried an s1, but am perhaps one of the guys you quoted talking about my initial experience with the s2. I do find the s2 to be all that you describe, though I did have to bump the mids very slightly to get there (@400 and 800hz). That and a slight tweak of the timbre knob on my amp brought it all together. Very clear, warm, present, punchy with a decent bit of growl thrown in - the sound is absolutely HUGE.

 

[KJung]

hi kjung - thanks for a great review - i have read this thread through at least 5 times in order to make up my mind...

the reason being that i am now also about to pull the trigger for an epi 410 ul, and i would be very interested to hear your opinion after you had a chance to play and compare the two for a bit longer.

would you still describe the difference between them as being subtle? i am asking because i noticed in some other threads that some people seemed to have initial problems with the series 2 in finding their sound and for example needed to dial in punch via eq. now i dont know what their initial expectations were, but mine would be definitely that the ul410 is a very punchy, warm speaker with a strong mix-cutting presence, yeah, physical and three dimensional, as described above. now, how much does this hold true of the series 2? or is the change so subtle, that it does not change the basic character of this cab.

i am playing through the epi ul210 series 1 at the moment and besides that i need more volume, i just find it slightly lacking in punch and presence. i know the ul210 has a mid-scoopy reputation, but i wonder would the s2 ul410 have a tendency in this direction? then it might not be for me.

i am playing j-bass, finger style funk/pop/rock, eden wt550. unfortunately i cannot testrun the epi, because there is no distributor in my country.

i have read all threads in relation to the series1 vs.2 more than once, and i am sure the answer is there somewhere but just cant find it. i just wish i could test it before buying

thanks a million,
curt

Hello Curt, and +1 to Alexander.

Curt, actually, the 410UL Series II is like a very, very loud 210UL Series I, if that makes sense. The 210UL I is relatively even to my ear, and does not have that little bit of mid hump that the 410UL I has. So, if you like your 210UL I, you will TOTALLY dig the 410UL II.

The 410UL II is very even, and sounds great to my ear. It's not that it sounds better or worse than the Series I, but it does sound somewhat different, and I find the heads that really make those two cabs shine a little different. It's surely in the same tone family, and I stand by my initial review, but it is somewhat more 'smooth and balanced', which would be a positive to many.

The Thunderfunk actually sounds great with both (that head is really something... I've yet to get it to sound less than wonderful). The LMII sounds a touch better with the 410UL I to me, since those nice warm mids really make the I growl. The SD800 just SINGS with the Series II 410UL.

Another long winded answer ... the 410UL II is more 'down the middle'... it won't generate the fanatacism that some of us feel about the 410UL I, but it sounds darn good. I would not hesitate to recommend it... light, loud, even, full, with that wonderful Epifani sparkle up top.

K

 

[NickyBass]

Hey guys. A really quick post and thread on the 410UL I vs. II.

There is a lot of interest in the 410UL since it is one of the lightest and loudest full size 410's on the market. I've been using the original 410UL for quite a few years now and really like it. Given this is my favorite cab of all time for delivering the tone I like (modern J Bass with SS roundwound strings), I thought I'd get the updated model to see what it is all about.

The original 410UL is voiced wonderfully for that grindy, modern 'Will Lee-like' modern J tone... big low end, lot's of definition and growl in the upper mids, and a very airy, musical treble response. While I love this voicing, some feel the upper mids are a little too aggressive, and the lower mids not quite punchy enough in relation to the big low end.

To this point, Gary (MacGroove) is the only TBer I know who has owned both and directly compared the two, and after pounding on both with my Thunderfunk and LMII with a couple of J's, I agree with his post of a couple of weeks ago.

They sound quite similar, with the primary difference being a slightly more compressed deep low end and a very, very subtle shift of the mids from the more upper mid range (maybe 600-800hz) to lower mid range (maybe 250). IMO, the differences are quite similar to the differences I heard between Vic's Series I and Series II 310UL's.... with the Series I being a little punchier and with more bass extension, and the Series II being a little more compressed in the low end, and a little 'flatter' in the mid voicing. I can hear how Vic and Tom Bowlus would hear the Series II as a more 'balanced' voicing (from their experience at NAMM and with my 410UL at a couple of hangs)... but it's pretty darn subtle to my ear.

My feeling is, as Gary mentioned, the subtle change is in the 'right' direction for most players. However, one of the strong points of the original model is its ability to punch through a busy mix and project that wonderful paper cone upper mid growl that, to me, makes a J bass sound like a J bass. It seems the Series II has lost just a little of that... it's just a touch more 'polite'. However, you can get both to sound virtually identical to my ear with a little EQ.

So... Nick didn't mess anything up here and this continues IMO to be a wonderful cab for pop/funk/modern country applications.

I'll post up again in a couple of weeks when I have the Series II on some gigs.

Edit: The subtle voicing change works well with the SD800.. which was my hope (based on descriptions by Gary, Vic and Tom Bowlus). The LMII/410UL(I) and SD800/410UL(II) sound quite a bit alike, with the slightly less present upper mids of the II working well with the very upper mid present SD800... nice!

Wow, I'm a little late on this thread. We had a chance to a/b the two at Bass Specialties at a recent GTG. I agree with Ken on alot of points. I would describe the series II as having a 'tighter' low end and more pleasing mids. Subtle---very very subtle. With a bit of creative eq, they can sound pretty close.

I'm sure Nick and the crew at Epifani have ears that are alot more 'golden' than mine, and I'm sure the Series II came about from alot of painstaking research. So, I don't want to dismiss any work that they put in.....The bottom line is that it is extremely hard to improve upon the Series I, so taking that into account this is a HUGE accomplishment.

 

[Vic]

...mid-scoopy reputation, but i wonder would the s2 ul410 have a tendency in this direction? then it might not be for me.

I know you asked Ken, and I'm not speaking for him, but let me offer this...

It is true that the S2 series cabs has less emphasized mids as compared to the S1. Particularly down about 400Hz or slightly below.

However, I don't think It'd be accurate to say "scooped" in the case of the 410, even the S2, because compared to other cabs, it's not. Compared to the S1 I suppose it is a little, but the S1 is so very mid heavy, to me, the S2 UL410 is simply more "balanced" sounding.

The whole S1 vs S2 thing affects diff cabs from them differently, so let me summarize this way:

IMHO...

410: S2 is a net overall improvement. Much more even-tempered, but still VERY punchy and loud. IMHO, this is the best 410 on the market right now.

310: S2 is a net negative from a punch perspective, from fairly "even" to a bit scooped, but only slightly, easily tweaked out by a touch of EQ. I have one of each of these, and if I were to only take ONE of them, It'd definitely be the S1. However, somehow they pair amazingly well as a stack, and the S2 is great for a fuller richer sound if you're not concerned about maximum cutting power.

210: From somewhat "weak" to worse. I wouldn't own an S2 210. Further, at almost the same price as the 310 and not much smaller, I can't see a lot of these sold.

112: I don't think I hear much of a diff, in fact I'm not sure this one changed. I think it might have just gotten rebadged to stay consistent with the look of the line. I have an "S1" and it's an amazing cab. My favorite 112 so far.

110: This one I haven't tested an S2, but I do own an S1. I'm guessing it might be a slight positive. I'd think a cab this small would tend to have emphasized mids, so something with a bit less mids might open it up kinda nicely, but again, sacrificing a bit of punch to do so.

 

[figuredbass]

310: S2 is a net negative from a punch perspective, from fairly "even" to a bit scooped, but only slightly, easily tweaked out by a touch of EQ. I have one of each of these, and if I were to only take ONE of them, It'd definitely be the S1. However, somehow they pair amazingly well as a stack, and the S2 is great for a fuller richer sound if you're not concerned about maximum cutting power.

+1 With only one 310UL I prefer the S1 as well. I can see how the two together would make an awesome stack.

Now the goofy part...I'll be shot down by every speaker cabinet expert out there, but I almost wish I could use two S1 drivers and one S2 driver in my UL310!

 

[el_Kabong]

hi kjung - thanks for a great review - i have read this thread through at least 5 times in order to make up my mind...

the reason being that i am now also about to pull the trigger for an epi 410 ul, and i would be very interested to hear your opinion after you had a chance to play and compare the two for a bit longer.

would you still describe the difference between them as being subtle? i am asking because i noticed in some other threads that some people seemed to have initial problems with the series 2 in finding their sound and for example needed to dial in punch via eq. now i dont know what their initial expectations were, but mine would be definitely that the ul410 is a very punchy, warm speaker with a strong mix-cutting presence, yeah, physical and three dimensional, as described above. now, how much does this hold true of the series 2? or is the change so subtle, that it does not change the basic character of this cab.

i am playing through the epi ul210 series 1 at the moment and besides that i need more volume, i just find it slightly lacking in punch and presence. i know the ul210 has a mid-scoopy reputation, but i wonder would the s2 ul410 have a tendency in this direction? then it might not be for me.

i am playing j-bass, finger style funk/pop/rock, eden wt550. unfortunately i cannot testrun the epi, because there is no distributor in my country.

i have read all threads in relation to the series1 vs.2 more than once, and i am sure the answer is there somewhere but just cant find it. i just wish i could test it before buying

thanks a million,
curt

My 2c worth is that it really depends on the rest of your gear, as to whether the S2 will do the job for you. The 'strong mix-cutting presence' is a very definite feature of the S1 410 but I don't know if it is with the S2 410. I own an S1 410 and an S2 210, the difference in the upper mid and treble response of the B&C vs the eminence drivers is pronounced, not subtle at all to my ear. I know I'm not comparing an S1/S2 410, so I could be off the mark. But given that the response of the drivers at this frequency (~2khz+) wouldn't be overly infuenced by the box design I think what I'm saying is valid. Anyway it's just IMO so take it with a grain of salt.

I don't mean to take Ken to task but I find his comments re the S2 ul410 confusing. I know how much Ken liked the S1 410 and I remember him saying that the S1 210 was his least favourite of the epi range, due to it's tendency to get buried in a mix. So saying an S2 410 is like a loud S1 210 and you'll love it is confusing to me, especially given your desire for 'strong mix-cutting presence'.

So again, I think it comes down to the entire rig - bass, amp and cab, and of course what you want to hear. My S2 210 gets swamped with my sadowsky modern and is fine with my nord/duncan loaded 5594. I think grabbing an S2 410 without trying it is a bit of a lucky dip. If it was my money (assuming you have access to them), I'd be trying out some glockenklang and tecamp cabs first to see if they can do the job, before taking a punt on the epi. IMO.

 

[KJung]

My 2c worth is that it really depends on the rest of your gear, as to whether the S2 will do the job for you. The 'strong mix-cutting presence' is a very definite feature of the S1 410 but I don't know if it is with the S2 410. I own an S1 410 and an S2 210, the difference in the upper mid and treble response of the B&C vs the eminence drivers is pronounced, not subtle at all to my ear. I know I'm not comparing an S1/S2 410, so I could be off the mark. But given that the response of the drivers at this frequency (~2khz+) wouldn't be overly infuenced by the box design I think what I'm saying is valid. Anyway it's just IMO so take it with a grain of salt.

I don't mean to take Ken to task but I find his comments re the S2 ul410 confusing. I know how much Ken liked the S1 410 and I remember him saying that the S1 210 was his least favourite of the epi range, due to it's tendency to get buried in a mix. So saying an S2 410 is like a loud S1 210 and you'll love it is confusing to me, especially given your desire for 'strong mix-cutting presence'.

So again, I think it comes down to the entire rig - bass, amp and cab, and of course what you want to hear. My S2 210 gets swamped with my sadowsky modern and is fine with my nord/duncan loaded 5594. I think grabbing an S2 410 without trying it is a bit of a lucky dip. If it was my money (assuming you have access to them), I'd be trying out some glockenklang and tecamp cabs first to see if they can do the job, before taking a punt on the epi. IMO.

This is a good post, and I realize my previous post was a little confusing. Here's my take. The Epi210UL Series I is the least 'mid present' of Series I 10" Epi cabs to my ear. It actually sounds very nice, but the combination of deep bass extension, polite midrange response, and small box is bad mojo IMO. That's the classic 'sounds great in the basement and buried on the gig' sort of deal. Of course, as you point out, the original 410UL is just the opposite. While it has even more low end extension than the 210UL, it has lots of grindy upper mids, and most importantly, it has the internal cabinet volume and size to propel its sound at very high volumes.

The S2 410UL is definitely less upper mid present than the S1410UL, and to my ear sounds somewhat similar to the 210UL Series I cab. HOWEVER, giving its large size, it does not have that problem of folding at moderate volumes like I've experiences with the 210UL SI. It does not 'growl' as much as the 410UL S1, but it sounds darn good, and is still very punchy to my ear.

From what I hear of the S2 210UL, that cab would be a real disaster for me.

So..... I still prefer the S1 410UL in general (and especially if you like a modern J Bass type tone)... again, the finest cab I've ever had on a gig for my sound (I actually think a couple of posters who regularly say the S2 410UL is superior to the S1 might feel differently if they actually tried each on gigs with various basses and heads!). However, the S2 410UL still makes me happy, and since that is the only model currently in production, I still feel its the best 410 on the planet regarding full sound, volume, weight, and tone for those looking for a 'modern sound with character'.

To be honest, if I had to choose, the S2 would be out the door LONG before the S1 Remember, Nick didn't change due to 'design reasons' or 'tone improvement' reasons... he changed because B&C couldn't keep up with demand and delivery requirements, and couldn't keep their prices competitive given the dollar to Euro exchange rate (from what I've been told from numerous sources).

K

Edit: Also, a strong +1 to the 'mix and match' as I always say. Each cab sounds slightly different with different heads and basses.

 

[curt72]

thanks, ken, vic, alexander

and thanks el-kabong for asking the obvious question about kens comparison ul210 s1 versus ul410 s2. i think kens explanation makes sense to me now.

i am leaning towards the s1 now, i just LOVE the idea of a super punchy finger style j-bass sound, and the s1 seems to be made just for that.

the only thing i am wondering now is the situation with replacement speakers. will there be a problem in future given the fact that they have a different supplier now? i mean this sounds like a cab for life...

 

[KJung]

thanks, ken, vic, alexander

and thanks el-kabong for asking the obvious question about kens comparison ul210 s1 versus ul410 s2. i think kens explanation makes sense to me now.

i am leaning towards the s1 now, i just LOVE the idea of a super punchy finger style j-bass sound, and the s1 seems to be made just for that.

the only thing i am wondering now is the situation with replacement speakers. will there be a problem in future given the fact that they have a different supplier now? i mean this sounds like a cab for life...

The replacement speaker issue is an important issue. I know from seeing B&C drivers that Nick used in the Series I that they are not in any way 'off the shelf'. They look very different than the 'stock B&C's that I've seen at Don's shop (LDS). My guess is that you would not be able to find an exact replacement driver if you had a problem. I guess the good news is that I've been pounding (and I mean pounding) on my 410UL for about 5 years now with no problems, and you don't hear of many 'blown' speakers with the Epi line.

Obviously, the best thing to do would be to try to get to a dealer and try the S2 410UL. It's hard not to like, and even though it doesn't have quite the punch and growly of the S1, it sounds darn good!

 

[tombowlus]

Wow, I'm a little late on this thread. We had a chance to a/b the two at Bass Specialties at a recent GTG. I agree with Ken on alot of points. I would describe the series II as having a 'tighter' low end and more pleasing mids. Subtle---very very subtle. With a bit of creative eq, they can sound pretty close.

+1 That jives with what I heard of the two series.

 

[Vic]

The replacement speaker issue is an important issue. I know from seeing B&C drivers that Nick used in the Series I that they are not in any way 'off the shelf'.
...
My guess is that you would not be able to find an exact replacement driver if you had a problem.

I called Epifani about this earlier this year, since I have at least 3 of these drivers, and likely 4.

They said they were going to stock some of these drivers precisely for the reason of repair/replacement of damaged drivers, AND, that there was no indication they couldn't get them in the future, just that there might be a cost/lead time issue is all.

However, that said, I can't remember seeing a post from someone blowing one of these cabs up... ever... so I'm figuring if they ever do replacements, they're non-warranty due to accidental abuse... not "failure".

I'm completely addicted to Epifani cabs at this point. They're light as a feather, and I feel completely safe pushing them hard. I can not say the same thing about other cabs I've owned.

 

[KJung]

I called Epifani about this earlier this year, since I have at least 3 of these drivers, and likely 4.

They said they were going to stock some of these drivers precisely for the reason of repair/replacement of damaged drivers, AND, that there was no indication they couldn't get them in the future, just that there might be a cost/lead time issue is all.

However, that said, I can't remember seeing a post from someone blowing one of these cabs up... ever... so I'm figuring if they ever do replacements, they're non-warranty due to accidental abuse... not "failure".

Excellent! Yeah, these things are relatively bomb proof, but it's good to know that you can get replacements, at least for a while. Cool!

 

[MacGroove]

Great posts by all, it's great when we can speak our minds on our likes and dislikes openly. I prefer the S2 UL410 for its smoothed out mid voicing and the addition of a bit more low end. I can still dial in extra mids (as in the S1) if needed to cut through a mix or eq for the room. It gives me more versitility with both my 502 and WW's (that actually sounds good with the S2 as compared with the S1).

AHHHHH.....Don't you just love the never ending search for tone.

 

[Joelc73]

It gives me more versitility with both my 502 and WW's (that actually sounds good with the S2 as compared with the S1).

Ken and I recently traded some PM's on the WWU / S2 issue. I like the WWU with the S2 410 much more than I ever did with the S1 also. Not my favorite pairing but definitely better than the S1/WWU combo.

JC