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4ohm Amp into four 8ohm cabs?

2 speakers acoustic coupling is 6 db? I thougth 3 db, so in series it would be -3db for the electrical reason of the double of impedance, and + 3 db of acoustic coupling, so is the same



Acoustic coupling results are +6dB from whatever SPL one of the cabs makes.

So it depends on the sensitivity rating of the cabs, how much wattage the amp makes at the resultant load, and how the power is split.

If power is held constant when you double the speakers, you get +3dB. If voltage is held constant, meaning the power doubles when the impedance is cut in half, you get +6dB.

This amp makes 500W RMS at 4 and 8 ohms.

Let's assume a sensitivity of 97dB 1W/1m for the 8 ohm cabs...and we have cabs that can handle the full 500W of power.

One 8 ohm cab with 500W
1-500W is a ~27dB change.​
For max SPL, add the sensitivity rating to the decibel change:
97+27=~124dB
When you ad the second cab power is split evenly. In this case the total power remains the same at 500W.
Each cab receives 500/2=250W
1-250W is a ~24dB change​
Max SPL of one cab at 250W:
97+24=121dB...notice it's 3db less and the power one cab sees has been cut in half.
Mutual coupling results for two identical cabs at 121dB:
121+6=~127dB

Now we will double the number of cabs again (2-4). The total power remains constant at 500W RMS.
Each cab receives 500/4=125W
1-125W is a ~21dB change​
Max SPL of one cab at 125W:
97+21=118dB​
Mutual coupling results for two identical cabs at 118dB
118+6=124dB​
Mutual coupling for four identical cabs at 118dB (we are doubling the speakers twice so we get the +6dB twice: 2x6=12)
118+12=~130dB...Note this is 3dB more than the two cabs at 121dB results above.
Summary:
One cab at 500W/124dB each = 500W/124dB total
Two cabs at 250W/121dB each = 500W/127dB total
Four cabs at 125W/118dB each = 500W/130dB total
I used the following online calculators to calculate dB change and confirm the acoustic summing of four cabs at 118dB=~130dB:
Watts to dBm conversion calculator (rapidtables.com)
Total dB level adding of coherent correlated sound sources combining decibels or SPL sound pressure level audio logarithmic decibel scale loudspeaker add signal noise levels incoherent noncoherentt - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

 
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A couple of points:
1. Series parallel is not difficult providing you attain the proper adapter cables. The amp has two speaker outs which are in parallel. Plug one series adapter into each output. Then plug two 8 ohm cabs into each series adapter, and series parallel is achieved and the total load is 8 ohms. It is important to be mindful of what you are doing and plug everything in properly, but it's not difficult.

I am not saying running series parallel is necessary a good idea...I am just saying it's not that hard if you have the adapters.

2. I believe the Trick Fish 1K really should be considered a 500W amp. Reference the manual which says it makes 1,000 peak and see post #28 for how this equals 500WRMS. I don't know of any other company using peak power ratings for their amps in lieu of RMS ratings.

I don't know how I can make this any more clear 1,000W peak is exactly the same as 500W RMS. Because Trickfish uses a peak rating, the amp is more equivalent to a GK MB500 rather than the MB800. However the Trickfish makes 1,000W peak at both 4 and 8 ohms. The MB500 is rated for 500WRMS at 4 ohms and 350W RMS at 8 ohms. The GK MB500's RMS ratings translate to 1,000W peak at 4 ohms and 700W peak at 8 ohms, so the Trickfish has the advantage at 8 ohms.

3. IMHO the best practice is for the speakers to be able to handle at least the RMS rating of the amp. So 600W power handling for the speakers would be pretty darn safe with a 500W. The question is whether the speakers will be loud enough. Pay attention to the sensitivity ratings of the cabs; higher is better.

4. Speaker ratings can be a bit confusing and misleading. Often the power rating is actually the RMS rating of the driver; in other words, the amount of power the voice coil can handle without burning out.

Unfortunately this does not tell you the mechanical power handling of the design below 100hz. Often the mechanical power handling for bass cabs and subwoofers is less than the RMS rating of the driver. The mechanical power handling depends on the driver's characteristics and also how the cab is tuned. So if you put the same driver in different boxes with different tunings, the mechanical power handling will vary.

5. Cabs may have four power ratings:
a. RMS Power is the long term average. AFAIK, this is determined by feeding the cab a complex waveform that has a 6dB crest factor that varies above and below the RMS value. Then the cab must survive for the amount of time determined in the standard.

b. Program or Music Power is generally 2X the RMS rating. This is the amount of power the cab can handle for short periods of time. It's measured as an RMS value rather than a peak value.

c. Peak Power is a translation of the cabs Program or Music Power. Although it looks like 2X the Program Power, its really the same power level; as discussed in post #28. So Peak Power doesn't really tell you anything more than the Program Power rating.

I think Peak Power is used partly because Crest factor is defined as the ratio of the peak value to the RMS value of the waveform. So a 6dB crest factor implies the peak rating is 8X the RMS rating. Personally I think Peak Power is confusing and misleading.

d. Mechanical Power is the amount of power a driver can take without exceeding it's excursion limits at low frequencies. Mesa posts more data on their bass cabs Mechanical Power ratings than any other company I can think of. AFAIK, Mechanical Power is also generally expressed as an RMS value.​

Between you and Agedhorse, I don’t know why I bother posting on threads like this. I probably shouldn’t LOL!!!
 
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Very interesting points came up in the last couple hours, nice

Right now im thinking about getting 2 112s as these should handle the power, be portable and loud enough aswell.
I wont get the 110s as they wont have a huge effect, atleast compared to 1200$ extra...(maybe ill get them some day when i know more about all this ;))
 
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Hi everyone,

I just bought the „Trickfish Bullhead 1k“ which is rated @4Ohm.

Now to the cabs:

Out of logistical reasons i thought about getting:
2x 110 instead of 210
2x 112 instead of 212
—-> this would be 4 8Ohm cabs

Is it possible to use 4 8Ohm cabs with the 4Ohm amp?
What are the downsides?


Im looking foreward to some replies :D
bassdude123
Wasnex told you how you could hook up 4 8Ω cabs to get an 8Ω load on your amp, but I'm going to guess you don't know what series/parallel connection is.

First off the industry standard connection is a parallel connection. If you hook up two 8Ω cabs, that impedance drops to a 4Ω load. If you add a third 8Ω cab, that drops it to 2.67Ω load and if you add a 4th that takes the ohms load down to 2Ω. Your amp has a 4Ω minimum load and trying to run a 2Ω load on it can not only damage it, but if the protections circuits don't kick in quickly enough that will turn your amp into an expensive paper weight. So you don't ever want to try that

The other connection that is possible but very uncommon now is a series connection. When cabs are hooked up in series connections, it adds the impedance of the cabs together. So if you hook up two cabs in series, that will give your amp a 16Ω load and will continue to add the ohms up for every cab you use. So if you hook up 4 8Ω cabs together in a series connection, that will give you a 32Ω load.

That is perfectly safe for solid state and class D amps, but it drops your available power by about 3/4 of what it would deliver into 8Ω. 3/4ths of 1000-watts leaves only 250 watts to be split 4-ways between your cabs which only sends 62.5 watts to each cab...makes no sense to do that. I have an old Sunn 212 cab that has both parallel and serial outputs from the cab. While that wasn't so unusual back in the 60's, 70's and perhaps even 80's, it's very unusual now. The industry standard connection is a parallel connection. So odds are you will need to get a series box to add two cabs together in series.

What @Wasnex was talking about is a method of wiring that is fairly common on internal wiring of 410 cabs. You can run a series connection between two 8Ω cabs and that will give you a 16Ω connection between those two cabs. Then you can run another series connection to the other two cabs, again giving you another 16Ω connection for that second pair of cabs. Finally, you can connect those two 16Ω pairs together in a parallel connection (which cuts the ohms load instead of adding it together) by plugging one pair into one of the speakon connections of your amp and the other pair into the other speakon connector and low and behold, you will end up with an 8 ohm load to your amp. I saw earlier that your amp evidently will produce 1,000 watts into either an 8 or a 4 ohm load, so each of your cabs will actually end up with 250-watts each if you run them all together. And that works. Still a LOT of cabs to carry, but it works.

I actually wouldn't recommend doing though that because it is not only a LOT of cabs to lug around, but your connection sequence using those serial connection boxes in the right place is critical to keeping your amp from melting. If you mess up the connections and forget to use those serial boxes, you'll either end up with very little power, or (hopefully) you'll send your amp into protected mode, turning it off before it melts.

I would suggest that you either run 1 each of a 212 with a 210 on top of it or two of the 212 cabs.

With the 210 plus 212 cab, you will put a 4Ω load on your amp and it will make available all 1,000-watts that it can produce. That will split 500-watts out to each cab. Very few 210 cabs can take that much power. It's more common to see 210 cabs that can handle 300 to perhaps 400-watts or so. Much easier to find a 212 that will handle 500-watts than a 210. I do have a [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] by DNA that handles 700-watts rms (both mechanically and thermally) but that's unusual.

The 210 and 212 stack (presuming they are the same brand) usually sound really good together but you have to be careful not to blow out the 210 if it can't handle the 500-watts. That's why you stack it on top. As long as you are not running distortion through your signal, and you make a point of listening to your gear, you should be able to hear if/when you start stressing your speakers. if that 210 starts making farting noise you need to fix it right now! If you don't, by the end of the song, those speakers will probably be blown. So you put the 210 on top so it's easier to hear. If you hear stress, drop your bass EQ back to flat or lower and if that doesn't fix it, turn down the master. If you are using distortion in your signal, odds are you won't hear your speakers being stressed until it is too late.

You can avoid most of that problem if you have a couple of cabs that will handle 500-watts or more. It's hard for me to imagine a place that you will need more than 1,000-watts going through four 12's. So I'd suggest that instead of buying four cabs, get two really good cabs that will handle 500-watts each. I might add that two [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] cabs by DNA would be an excellent choice.

Here's a shot of my full rig although I only used the 210 at that gig because it was more than enough for this "almost" large room.
upload_2021-8-3_18-16-48.jpeg
 

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Wasnex told you how you could hook up 4 8Ω cabs to get an 8Ω load on your amp, but I'm going to guess you don't know what series/parallel connection is.

First off the industry standard connection is a parallel connection. If you hook up two 8Ω cabs, that impedance drops to a 4Ω load. If you add a third 8Ω cab, that drops it to 2.67Ω load and if you add a 4th that takes the ohms load down to 2Ω. Your amp has a 4Ω minimum load and trying to run a 2Ω load on it can not only damage it, but if the protections circuits don't kick in quickly enough that will turn your amp into an expensive paper weight. So you don't ever want to try that

The other connection that is possible but very uncommon now is a series connection. When cabs are hooked up in series connections, it adds the impedance of the cabs together. So if you hook up two cabs in series, that will give your amp a 16Ω load and will continue to add the ohms up for every cab you use. So if you hook up 4 8Ω cabs together in a series connection, that will give you a 32Ω load.

That is perfectly safe for solid state and class D amps, but it drops your available power by about 3/4 of what it would deliver into 8Ω. 3/4ths of 1000-watts leaves only 250 watts to be split 4-ways between your cabs which only sends 62.5 watts to each cab...makes no sense to do that. I have an old Sunn 212 cab that has both parallel and serial outputs from the cab. While that wasn't so unusual back in the 60's, 70's and perhaps even 80's, it's very unusual now. The industry standard connection is a parallel connection. So odds are you will need to get a series box to add two cabs together in series.

What @Wasnex was talking about is a method of wiring that is fairly common on internal wiring of 410 cabs. You can run a series connection between two 8Ω cabs and that will give you a 16Ω connection between those two cabs. Then you can run another series connection to the other two cabs, again giving you another 16Ω connection for that second pair of cabs. Finally, you can connect those two 16Ω pairs together in a parallel connection (which cuts the ohms load instead of adding it together) by plugging one pair into one of the speakon connections of your amp and the other pair into the other speakon connector and low and behold, you will end up with an 8 ohm load to your amp. I saw earlier that your amp evidently will produce 1,000 watts into either an 8 or a 4 ohm load, so each of your cabs will actually end up with 250-watts each if you run them all together. And that works. Still a LOT of cabs to carry, but it works.

I actually wouldn't recommend doing though that because it is not only a LOT of cabs to lug around, but your connection sequence using those serial connection boxes in the right place is critical to keeping your amp from melting. If you mess up the connections and forget to use those serial boxes, you'll either end up with very little power, or (hopefully) you'll send your amp into protected mode, turning it off before it melts.

I would suggest that you either run 1 each of a 212 with a 210 on top of it or two of the 212 cabs.

With the 210 plus 212 cab, you will put a 4Ω load on your amp and it will make available all 1,000-watts that it can produce. That will split 500-watts out to each cab. Very few 210 cabs can take that much power. It's more common to see 210 cabs that can handle 300 to perhaps 400-watts or so. Much easier to find a 212 that will handle 500-watts than a 210. I do have a [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] by DNA that handles 700-watts rms (both mechanically and thermally) but that's unusual.

The 210 and 212 stack (presuming they are the same brand) usually sound really good together but you have to be careful not to blow out the 210 if it can't handle the 500-watts. That's why you stack it on top. As long as you are not running distortion through your signal, and you make a point of listening to your gear, you should be able to hear if/when you start stressing your speakers. if that 210 starts making farting noise you need to fix it right now! If you don't, by the end of the song, those speakers will probably be blown. So you put the 210 on top so it's easier to hear. If you hear stress, drop your bass EQ back to flat or lower and if that doesn't fix it, turn down the master. If you are using distortion in your signal, odds are you won't hear your speakers being stressed until it is too late.

You can avoid most of that problem if you have a couple of cabs that will handle 500-watts or more. It's hard for me to imagine a place that you will need more than 1,000-watts going through four 12's. So I'd suggest that instead of buying four cabs, get two really good cabs that will handle 500-watts each. I might add that two [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] cabs by DNA would be an excellent choice.

Here's a shot of my full rig although I only used the 210 at that gig because it was more than enough for this "almost" large room.
View attachment 4356552
Yes, i will most likely get 2 112s which should really be loud enough.
As we do most gigs with PA, my cabs would be just a monitor anyway.

Second reason i will most likely stick with two cabs is as you meantioned the risk of damaging equipment. As im relatively new to all this amp technology, i will start off with a usual setup :)
 
Yes, i will most likely get 2 112s which should really be loud enough.
As we do most gigs with PA, my cabs would be just a monitor anyway.

Second reason i will most likely stick with two cabs is as you meantioned the risk of damaging equipment. As im relatively new to all this amp technology, i will start off with a usual setup :)
Two 112's is a good choice because you can use just one for small venues and two for medium and some large venues. It depends a lot on how much power they can handle and how loud they get. I used two 112's for medium-sized venues for about a year before I bought my DNS-210.

I originally bought just one Eden EX-112 cab (handles 300-watts rms) to use at a small brew pub where we hosted open-mic night 40+ Fridays a year. Bought it in 4 ohm because I was planning on just using it at that one venue and I wanted to get the most out of the amp I planned to use with it which was an Eden Nemesis RS400, which put out 400-watts into 4Ω. That 112 cab could handle 300-watts and I run a very clean, clear sound so I was confident I wouldn't stress it. That darn Eden EX112 sounded so good that night that I ordered a second one the next day so I could use two for medium-sized venues and reserve my 410 for the large venues, outdoor venues, and Festivals.

Had to use my big Eden amp which has two power channels, each delivering 400-watts into 4 ohms because I didn't have an amp at the time that would go down to 2 ohms. If I had bought the 8Ω versions instead of the 4Ω versions I could have used a smaller, lighter amp, but I didn't so had to use my big one. Those Eden EX-112 cabs are very compact because they use a whizzer cone (smaller cone inside the woofer cone) to handle the high mids and highs and they are were only $269 each. By comparison, Eden's top-of-the-line D112XST cabs are almost $600 more and there's nowhere near $600 difference in sound. I got a LOT of compliments on my sound running those. I opted for the DNS-210 afterwards because it was about 10-lbs. lighter than two of the 112's, louder than the 112's, and sounded just like my DNS-410 in a smaller form (love that sound). Still, I really did enjoy running those two 112's.

Here's what that two 112 setup looked like. Notice that even with the 112's laid on their side to line up the ports, my big Eden amp still overhangs it on both sides. They are very compact 112's:
2x112Rig_525x700.jpg



And below is the rig I run at small venues. That's an Eden TN226 (225-watts rms) class D amp weighing in at 4.7-lbs., running just one 112. Notice how much smaller it is than my big Eden amp? If I had it to do over, I would have purchased the TN501 (500-watts rms) instead because it's much more versatile. But this is a really nice small venue setup because I can throw the amp in its shoulder bag, put my gig bag over my other shoulder, grab my 112 by its top handle and my bass in its case in the other hand and bring in almost everything in one trip. I do have to go back to my truck to get my mic stand and stage stool, but load in and out is a snap with this set-up. And notice how nicely it all fits in a chair! Don't even have to bring an amp stand or milk carton to sit it on.

TN226PlusEX112_600x846.jpg
 
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Agreed and I wish folks would stop suggesting it.
Absolutely agree.
Another factor is that when series/parallel connections are involved then you have a configuration that can easily be misconfigured into amp destruction mode. One of the big advantages of having everything in parallel, apart from it being standard, is that there is no wrong way to plug in the speakers. This matters a great deal if you are rushed, or tired, or stressed, or have amateur road crew/people being "helpful".