575 watt combo not loud enough!

[SwamiRob]

Just because you can get a 600W driver that can blow a weedier driver away in a smaller box doesn't mean that it wouldn't fare better in a larger one, as bongo was kinda getting at... Obviously science has come along way in this field, and there is some cool stuff in some very small boxes, but still you need a certain amount of volume in a cab to get the most out a driver.

 

[SwamiRob]

Not true.

You can currently get high xmax 12" and 15" drivers, but no comparably high xmax 10" drivers. That is one "old vs. new" place where 15/12 has an advantage currently over 10's.

That's just because that's what's currently being produced, it's still very possible to make a 10 like that I would assume.

 

[aborgman]

That's just because that's what's currently being produced, it's still very possible to make a 10 like that I would assume.

Yes, it's certainly possible to construct.

...but no one is doing it, and no has any serious plans to that I know of.

In general your high xmax drivers are going to be low frequency only drivers, and I don't see a ton of impetus for 10" versions.

 

[bongomania]

Granting that there are higher-Xmax 15's and 12's in current production, that doesn't actually change the problems with tuning that were the point of my post. Nor does it change the fact that we cannot generalize that a 1x15 will be lighter, smaller, louder, and lower than any 4x10. In order to get to the point where one is louder or lower than the other, you have to assume that one is better-built, using better components, and better tuning--irrespective of the cone diameter.

 

[aborgman]

Granting that there are higher-Xmax 15's and 12's in current production, that doesn't actually change the problems with tuning that were the point of my post. Nor does it change the fact that we cannot generalize that a 1x15 will be lighter, smaller, louder, and lower than any 4x10.

Not will, but can...

Using current technology you can build a 1x15 that is as loud as any 4x10, and is lighter and goes lower.

Using current technology you can't build a 4x10 that is as loud as any 1x15, and is lighter and goes lower.

Now next year maybe someone will make it possible... but as of right now, in pure volume (especially at low frequencies) in a given weight - you're going to have a hard time beating a 3015LF+mid setup.

 

[bongomania]

Sure--as I already indicated, you can talk about the best-designed 1x15 with the best components and tuning... or you can talk about the vast majority of 1x15 cabs currently on the market. Not the same thing.

 

[aborgman]

Sure--as I already indicated, you can talk about the best-designed 1x15 with the best components and tuning... or you can talk about the vast majority of 1x15 cabs currently on the market. Not the same thing.

You can talk about the best 1x15 with the best components and tuning vs. the best 4x10 with the best components and tuning - and the 1x15 wins.

Both can have a massive range of suboptimal realizations, but with currently available technology the potential is higher for 12/15 vs. 10's.

...but really my whole disagreement was with the statement:

If you are comparing a 1x15 with a 4x10, then there is no point to discussing old versus new--any benefits of light weight or efficiency that can apply to a modern 1x15 also apply to a modern 4x10.

Because there are benefits that can apply to a modern 15 that DON'T also apply to a modern 4x10.

 

[R. Laevinus]

...in my last band, I was running 200 watts into a 2x10, against 100 watts of Marshall into a 4x12 / heavy-hitting prog-metal drummer / 1500 watt PA system - and I was heard just fine.

I think that more speakers are always better, and that 500 watts should be plenty - but I think if you're having trouble being heard, you need to be concerned about everybody else's levels.

If cash is tight, I'd suggest DI'ing into the FOH or band PA for extra oomph.

 

[SwamiRob]

What about cabs such as the acme b4 though? Acmes all use 10 inch drivers and are renowned for going way down low. As awesome as they appear to be, I bet a b4 could hold up pretty well against a fEarful from what I've heard of both cabs, both flat low and loud.

 

[Bassman62]

So, in that earlier post when you said "widen your range", did you mean range of loudness, or range of low frequencies?.

You seem to be quoting loudness and volume in the same context, which is another of your errors.
You also assume that all speakers can have the same performance characteristics which is rather futile as nobody would be producing speakers of different sizes if your strange philosophy was fact.

 

[Agito]

How about 2x10 and 1x15, It should be loud 'ight?

 

[bongomania]

You seem to be quoting loudness and volume in the same context, which is another of your errors.
You also assume that all speakers can have the same performance characteristics which is rather futile as nobody would be producing speakers of different sizes if your strange philosophy was fact.

What, are we on bizarro world? Neither loudness nor volume have any technical meaning whatsoever--so to try to split hairs on their definition is silly. And where is this assumption of mine? Nowhere! If you actually read any of my posts, their whole point is that you cannot make sweeping generalizations about the performance of one speaker diameter versus another!

In fact that's what's so galling about that exchange with aborgman--just because there have been some recent improvements in xmax of 15's and 12's does not translate at all to the idea that if the OP buys "any" 1x15 he will get better performance, which is the generalization I was trying to dispel, and the only reason I posted anything at all.

 

[Bassman62]

In fact that's what's so galling about that exchange with aborgman--just because there have been some recent improvements in xmax of 15's and 12's does not translate at all to the idea that if the OP buys "any" 1x15 he will get better performance, which is the generalization I was trying to dispel, and the only reason I posted anything at all.

The main improvements in speaker design is in materials (voice coils & Neodymium) not Xmax.
Nobody said "any" 1x15; you are the one who generalised by implying "Most 1x15s are huge and heavy" which is not the case; the true case is the most 4x10s are big and certainly heavier than a 1x15 and are often too big to transport in many vehicles.
I followed the Eminence spec on a 15 that I purchased 3.9 cubic feet is not a massive huge cab.
The 1x15" cabs I'm currently using are 23"x21"x17" loaded with Eminence 2515s with an internal volume of 3.6 cubic feet; don't tell me who uses them that they're lacking in low bass.
BTW Volume of sound is totaly different to loudness.

 

[Bassman62]

How about 2x10 and 1x15, It should be loud 'ight?

That is what I use and wouild certainly recommend.
I've played in all types of situations (including a genuine ancient Greek Ampitheatre), most of the gigs are without PA/FOH support.

 

[SwamiRob]

2x10 and 1x15 will cause phasing problems though, there's alot of discussion about it in this thread http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=595143

When I bought my "wardrobe", I bought it was the similarly deluded aim of thinking that a big speaker would give me more bottom end, when I put it under my Laney 4x10 the increase in volume was definitely audible, but in comparison to them used by themselves the increase in volume wasn't nearly what it would be if I used 2 of the 4x10s or 2 of the 1x15s. Mixed together they also sounded like a mess, whereas they both sounded great on their own given that they're both relatively cheap cabs.

 

[aborgman]

What about cabs such as the acme b4 though? Acmes all use 10 inch drivers and are renowned for going way down low. As awesome as they appear to be, I bet a b4 could hold up pretty well against a fEarful from what I've heard of both cabs, both flat low and loud.

My understanding is that the B4 is pretty flat, but the sensitivity isn't great - so max volume the fEarful probably wins... and the B4 weighs almost 2x as much...

 

[Bassman62]

2x10 and 1x15 will cause phasing problems though, there's alot of discussion about it in this thread http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=595143

When I bought my "wardrobe", I bought it was the similarly deluded aim of thinking that a big speaker would give me more bottom end, when I put it under my Laney 4x10 the increase in volume was definitely audible, but in comparison to them used by themselves the increase in volume wasn't nearly what it would be if I used 2 of the 4x10s or 2 of the 1x15s. Mixed together they also sounded like a mess, whereas they both sounded great on their own given that they're both relatively cheap cabs.

Aren't phasing problems a possibility when bi-amping and using a crossover without a phase correction switch?
If when mixed together (2x10+1x15) your rig sounded a mess I wouldn't be blaming a well tried and used configuration I'd be looking elsewhere. I was provided a rig with a rock blues band and true there was a phasing problem which I sorted in 5 mins, some noob who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a soldering iron had been inside the cabs already.

 

[drden]

Not sure if somebody already mentioned this, but your amp may not be putting out its full 575 watts in the configuration its in. With that being said, even 300 watts or some similar fraction of the power should be plenty loud. Other things I think of off the top of my head are possibly not EQed to the room/band well enough, or maybe your 2x10 speakers aren't up to snuff like nearly every poster prior to me has said. Also your guitards may be a tad loud. They tend to do that

I use 300 watts through a 1x15 cab. It has plenty of volume, and the tone usually cuts well enough. Do NOT underestimate the power or importance of mids. I was thinking about adding some tens to my rig to tighten it up a bit, but its holding up pretty well right now, at a fraction of the wattage of your amp.

Good luck, man

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Sometimes all it takes is getting the right eq setting and not having the input level over the output level. That can cut into the volume level and push to the point of muddiness and various levels of distortion(but some times distortion is a good thing).



I have a lot of experience with the Ashdown combo you described as well Ashdown 410's and the rack version of that head(over 10 years).














I'm an Ashdown endorser.

 

[LowG]

It's very funny that such a simple question with simple answers has led to such a long thread. The search function would have solved this problem and not rehashed so many opinions expressed more than enough times already.

Let's not add anymore, please?