800w @ 8 Ohm class D head suggestions

[Joebone]

Not many options, as I’m sure you are aware of.

The larger amp is way outside the sweet spot, which is why manufactures are reluctant to develop for. The regulatory costs alone are a major stumbling block for those who follow the rules. Then there’s tooling costs and MOQ’s.

So it seems! I've periodically nudged for a high-powered Subway 800+ or WD...but if it's not to be, then it's not to be... And I've flirted with the notion of Subway cabinets and return to those amps...but the Greenboy fearless does "fast and fat" like nothing else I've experienced, and I'm addicted...

 

[el murdoque]

Yet neither of these amps are still in production, and not replaced by models with similar power ratings.

Like I posted earlier, there’s good reasons.

I did not want this, but you force me to:

The Bugera "VEYRON TUBE BV1001T" is rated 2000W at 4 Ohm and 1000W at 8 Ohm.



I'll see myself out.

 

[John D Harris]

And have been discontinued for at least a few decades…

Yeah, but if you're really into Heavy Metal...

 

[bherman]

An Epifani Performance 1000 (used / discontinued) will do 1000 watts bridged into an 8 ohm load (only). They're running ~$550.

Riis

I appreciate you guidance. As a matter of fact I know many folks on this forum are very appreciative of your expertise. But I kinda already knew my challenge, thus the reason for creating the post. I’m having sellers regret for letting go of my ol’ Streamliner 900. Used it for a decade, and went back to Eden for the tone, But the Eden stuff is all old now. Either worn out or too low a wattage for this cab. Or too heavy for the higher watt stuff.

Used Streamliner 900s show up here in the classifieds fairly often, And with @agedhorse reasonably priced “tune-ups”, you could buy another and have it looked over, it’d be like a new amp.

 

[Collin Bass]

I only gig with my Eden rack set up on rare occasions like large or outdoor venues. The main reason finding a qualified repair tech these days that have the schematics and the OEM parts to repair Eden gear is about impossible. Frankly, I don’t care about the weight, which my rack is about 3 times heavier than your WT-800, but IMO it’s the best sound amplifier system I’ve ever heard and I’d hate to have it fry.

I had a WT-800 as well as the all tube WT-300. Both are gone and have been replaced with a Mesa WD-800. After much knob twisting (the 3 band parametric EQ is much different than Eden’s) I found that I can get that very warm Eden sound.

One other thing, with your MB 104 8 ohm cab. The Eden WD-800 will only put out 400 watts when it sees an 8 ohm load. It needs a 4 ohm load to get the full 800 Watts. The WT-800 on the otherhand bridged will put out 800 watts on an 8ohm load.

Hope this helps. Good luck on your search.

WT 800 can actually bridge both channels at 8 ohms giving it the full 800W at 8 ohm.

Other than a little added clean headroom, however, there's not a lot of noticeable difference between 400 and 800 watts. Any 800 D class (400W at 8 ohm) will still drive the heck out of that cab. (Except for maybe a TC amp. I don't care what everyone says about perceived volume, I have an rh750 and it isn't nearly as loud as my D-800+, not was my classic 450 anywhere near as loud as my Yorkville xm200.)

 

[dbsfgyd1]

WT 800 can actually bridge both channels at 8 ohms giving it the full 800W at 8 ohm.

Other than a little added clean headroom, however, there's not a lot of noticeable difference between 400 and 800 watts. Any 800 D class (400W at 8 ohm) will still drive the heck out of that cab. (Except for maybe a TC amp. I don't care what everyone says about perceived volume, I have an rh750 and it isn't nearly as loud as my D-800+, not was my classic 450 anywhere near as loud as my Yorkville xm200.)

I power one of Eden 8 ohm cabs with a Mesa WD-800 set at 2 ohm which limits output @ 300 watts and it gigs well. No, I don’t have guitarists with Marshall stacks and or drummers that’s play using fence posts. I have 5 1200 watt floor wedges pointed at the ankles of our deaf singers but focused at my head in the back lol..

I agree that discerning the different amount dBs by adding more wattage is challenging. The only difference I can tell between 300 to 400 watts is my rig sounds better when power is limited to 300 watts.

Anyway, cab efficiency is an often overlooked part of building a rig and deciding how much power you need to generate the required amount of dBs. Wattage, not so much.

 

[Collin Bass]

I power one of Eden 8 ohm cabs with a Mesa WD-800 set at 2 ohm which limits output @ 300 watts and it gigs well. [...] The only difference I can tell between 300 to 400 watts is my rig sounds better when power is limited to 300 watts. [...] cab efficiency is an often overlooked part of building a rig and deciding how much power you need to generate the required amount of dBs. Wattage, not so much.

That is really interesting. Out of curiosity what is your cabinet rated for and what kind of sensitivity do(es) the speaker(s) have? I'm assuming setting the amp to 2 ohms must either add maybe a resistancw of some sort to the circuit which might be bypassed when switched to 4/8 ohm, or maybe steps down the voltage or changes the voltage regulation?

Not even going to pretend a little bit to know how my amp works. Lol just wondering why it would sound better limited to 300W with the 2 Ohm setting than it would at the 8 ohm impedance. Just wondering what that must being to the signal.

I only know basic electrical theory, and as for sound I work in ultrasonics but sound pressure and acoustic emission being pushed through a material and sound pressure/damping/resonance/perceived volume in/from a cabinet are very different, I'm sure. I would like to build my own cab at some point but I don't know what I'm doing enough yet to do it correctly, I don't think.

Wondering also if there is a way to run/edit/rewire my 600W 8 Ohm LDS 15/6.5/1 cab more efficiently or to get it louder somehow with the D800+ I have right now (hell of an amp, btw, love that thing) or if it would sound better to get a larger 4 ohm cab or two 8 Ohm cabs. Again, no real idea what I am doing here and I have zero complaints over my amp or cabinet. They both sound great to me, but I sometimes like to understand how things work and to tinker. (The ADHD is strong in me!)

 

[Joebone]

I power one of Eden 8 ohm cabs with a Mesa WD-800 set at 2 ohm which limits output @ 300 watts and it gigs well. No, I don’t have guitarists with Marshall stacks and or drummers that’s play using fence posts. I have 5 1200 watt floor wedges pointed at the ankles of our deaf singers but focused at my head in the back lol..

I agree that discerning the different amount dBs by adding more wattage is challenging. The only difference I can tell between 300 to 400 watts is my rig sounds better when power is limited to 300 watts.

Anyway, cab efficiency is an often overlooked part of building a rig and deciding how much power you need to generate the required amount of dBs. Wattage, not so much.

This is interesting. When I had a WD800 running into one 4-ohm cabinet (Audiokinesis), it sounded better switched to the 2-ohm setting - just seemed more authoritative and grunty...

 

[dbsfgyd1]

That is really interesting. Out of curiosity what is your cabinet rated for and what kind of sensitivity do(es) the speaker(s) have? I'm assuming setting the amp to 2 ohms must either add maybe a resistancw of some sort to the circuit which might be bypassed when switched to 4/8 ohm, or maybe steps down the voltage or changes the voltage regulation?

Not even going to pretend a little bit to know how my amp works. Lol just wondering why it would sound better limited to 300W with the 2 Ohm setting than it would at the 8 ohm impedance. Just wondering what that must being to the signal.

I only know basic electrical theory, and as for sound I work in ultrasonics but sound pressure and acoustic emission being pushed through a material and sound pressure/damping/resonance/perceived volume in/from a cabinet are very different, I'm sure. I would like to build my own cab at some point but I don't know what I'm doing enough yet to do it correctly, I don't think.

Wondering also if there is a way to run/edit/rewire my 600W 8 Ohm LDS 15/6.5/1 cab more efficiently or to get it louder somehow with the D800+ I have right now (hell of an amp, btw, love that thing) or if it would sound better to get a larger 4 ohm cab or two 8 Ohm cabs. Again, no real idea what I am doing here and I have zero complaints over my amp or cabinet. They both sound great to me, but I sometimes like to understand how things work and to tinker. (The ADHD is strong in me!)

Well my cabs are Eden D-210-XST (2) 8 ohm rated at 500 watts RMS 103% efficient, and an Eden D-112-XST 8 ohm rated at 300 watts also 103% efficient.

I got this tip on setting the my WD-800 at 2ohms from agedhorse when discussing thatch didn’t care about the sound of my cabs when pushed to the limit. It’s not in the owners manual. When my cabs get above 80% of it’s limit they tend to sound harsh/ blare-ish.

I know nothing about engineering. From what I’ve read here from those that are is that 4 ohm cabs (for reasons I can fathom) are not as efficient as an 8ohm cab.

For instance, you have two identical cabs from the same manufacturer. The only difference is one is an 8ohm cab, the other is a 4 ohm cab. Using the the same amp one would think that the 4 ohm cab would be significantly louder than the 8 ohm cab since it’s powered with twice the wattage. But that is not the case. It might be somewhat louder but certainly not twice as loud.

Where the rubber meets the road, the Eden D-210-XST driven with 400 watts can generate up to somewhere around 125 dB. Certainly enough to cover most applications I’m going to run across. All of them with FOH support.

On that score, an anadote.

We had just hired a new drummer who happened to be a two time Emmy award winner for sound production. We were playing an outdoor concert and we were setting up our gear. Since it was outside with no band shell, I brought my second 210 cab along with my Eden amp rack (see my avatar pic). He looks over and goes “Man, that’s the biggest heaviest DI I’ve ever seen…” yeah, it got me rethinking some things.

Hope this helps.

 

[agedhorse]

Wondering also if there is a way to run/edit/rewire my 600W 8 Ohm LDS 15/6.5/1 cab more efficiently or to get it louder somehow with the D800+ I have right now (hell of an amp, btw, love that thing) or if it would sound better to get a larger 4 ohm cab or two 8 Ohm cabs. Again, no real idea what I am doing here and I have zero complaints over my amp or cabinet. They both sound great to me, but I sometimes like to understand how things work and to tinker. (The ADHD is strong in me!)

Your LDS is an 8 ohm cabinet, no way to change it. 400 watts is just about the ideal power for that cabinet (regardless of its power rating)

Adding a second identical cabinet would get you far more than changing one cabinet to 4 ohms in any regard.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

This is interesting. When I had a WD800 running into one 4-ohm cabinet (Audiokinesis), it sounded better switched to the 2-ohm setting - just seemed more authoritative and grunty...

Is ,your cab rated for 800 watts? I don’t exactly what to wattage output is from the amp, 600 maybe? Agedhorse would know for sure. Like I posted, I find that powering with no more that 80% of the cab’s rating is a good spot to be.

If your cab is not rated for the amount wattage your amp is sending, you are running the risk of damaging your speakers, and possibly the amp as well if the speakers short. It’s a wives tale that you can hear damage happening soon enough to prevent permanent damage.

 

[agedhorse]

Also, most 4 ohm drivers have a lower sensitivity than their 8 ohm version.

 

[Joebone]

Is ,your cab rated for 800 watts? I don’t exactly what to wattage output is from the amp, 600 maybe? Agedhorse would know for sure. Like I posted, I find that powering with no more that 80% of the cab’s rating is a good spot to be.

If your cab is not rated for the amount wattage your amp is sending, you are running the risk of damaging your speakers, and possibly the amp as well if the speakers short. It’s a wives tale that you can hear damage happening soon enough to prevent permanent damage.

Cab was rated for 500 RMS. IIRC, the 2-ohm WD800 setting limted output to 600 at 4 ohms? Anyhow, never came anywhere near discernible trouble...rarely had the volume past 11...o'clock, that is...

 

[Joebone]

So returning to the OP's original question, cruising the web indicates that Peavey has their own Class-D module, available in various Peavey and Trace Elliott packages, claiming 1200W at 4 ohms. Any one have any experience with these, particularly the Trace Elliott TE1200?

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Cab was rated for 500 RMS. IIRC, the 2-ohm WD800 setting limted output to 600 at 4 ohms? Anyhow, never came anywhere near discernible trouble...rarely had the volume past 11...o'clock, that is...

Just remember, you’ve been informed..lol!

 

[TTA]

You probably already know this, but many manufacturers of mass-produced bass cabs publish the cab's "thermal" power rating and not the cab's "mechanical" power rating. It's not uncommon for a cab's mechanical power rating (where the speaker blows) to be around half of its thermal rating (where the voice coil melts). So it is possible for a so-called 800 watt cab to actually only handle around 400 watts RMS before blowing the speakers. Many bass cab manufacturers like to publish the thermal rating rather than the mechanical rating because the thermal number is so much higher (it sounds more impressive which translates to higher sales). So if you plan to push more than 400 watts RMS into that cab, my recommendation is, be careful.

the markbass 104 hf standard (op’s cab in question) is listed at 800w rms (aes standard).

 

[agedhorse]

the markbass 104 hf standard (op’s cab in question) is listed at 800w rms (aes standard).

What SactoBass is saying is that both thermal and mechanical power handling are specified using RMS metrics, but they can be very different numbers depending on the individual design.

Mechanical power handling is almost always less than thermal power handling, and when the power handling type isn’t specified, it’s assumed to be thermal.

 

[TTA]

What SactoBass is saying is that both thermal and mechanical power handling are specified using RMS metrics, but they can be very different numbers depending on the individual design.

Mechanical power handling is almost always less than thermal power handling, and when the power handling type isn’t specified, it’s assumed to be thermal.

makes sense. it is such a minefield of data/ratings that i have kind of given up on it all as a non-expert, and i just rely on my ear. Caveat emptor.

continuous, rms, program, aes, peak, mechanical rms, thermal rms.

like traynor lists program, but told me they test a protocol at the rated watts for 2 hours… which sounds like aes.

curious if bearfaced rms ratings are thermal for their 12 cabs. 1600w is a lot for say a 2x12.

 

[agedhorse]

makes sense. it is such a minefield of data/ratings that i have kind of given up on it all as a non-expert, and i just rely on my ear. Caveat emptor.

continuous, rms, program, aes, peak, mechanical rms, thermal rms.

like traynor lists program, but told me they test a protocol at the rated watts for 2 hours… which sounds like aes.

curious if bearfaced rms ratings are thermal for their 12 cabs. 1600w is a lot for say a 2x12.

It is a minefield of sorts, with a lot of the important information pretty well obscured (even to me, and I know what to look for)

Testing for 2 hours can be done with any of the above methods, but I sure hope that a speaker can survive 2 hours at rated power without damage. In general. the 2 hour AES test is a must survive test and may not meet the factor spec afterwards. When I do testing like this, I like to test a sample or two for between 20 and 200 hours and look at the shifts of the Fs spec. There's not always the time, or a place in the warehouse to do this but I will always go well beyond 2 hours.

Just a quick note on the 2 hour must survive power rating, in order to survive for 20 hours, the power level generally has to be reduced by between 20% and 25%, so in theory you could translate between the two (kind of close) but a 20 hour with no significant changes in the Fs value always results in a much more conservative power handling number. Since we offer a 5 year warranty, it obviously makes more sense to be conservative.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Invalid Link Removed