A Thought About P Basses in the Studio

[frankie5string]

I'll throw something else into the convo here: I have played P's mostly for ages live and recording--the "sit in the mix" thing is obviously a known quantity. However...I've been digging on my Jazz lately, and I'm finding that, the both pickups dimed setting is actually the "tightest" most focused sound, and is the most even throughout the range of the instrument and dare I say, the most consistently "sit in the mix" setting. Doesn't sound like a P of course--it's like one giant humbucker spread out across the strings as opposed to one in a narrower configuration--but I wonder if Leo intended that was the "ground zero" setting for the Jazz. Then any fiddling you want to do with pickup volumes is cool, but secondary to the main tone of the bass, and if you wanna go there, deal with the potential hum (like he may have with a Strat...)

Sitting in the mix isn't quite the same as scooping out the mix... Jazz basses actually had less of the fundamental in their tone than P-Basses.

Also, if you're playing a jazz without the individual string mutes engaged, you're actually not playing it the way Fender originally designed it. Eventually he made muting a choice with MusicMan and the adjustable mutes, but when the Jazz Bass was created, it was expected to run with the felt mutes engaged all the time.

 

[frankie5string]

You do know (maybe not) that the first 6 years they were produced, Precisions had a single coil (hummed like crazy) pickup - right? If there are stories of early Precisions humming, that would be the cause.

Yup... of course. Wilton Felder (and many others) played those single-coil Ps for decades. But the hum-bucking P bass could also be induced to hum, just not from the same noise source. I wasn't referring to those - I was talking about initial modern split-coil version.

 

[LowendG]

Sitting in the mix isn't quite the same as scooping out the mix... Jazz basses actually had less of the fundamental in their tone than P-Basses.

Also, if you're playing a jazz without the individual string mutes engaged, you're actually not playing it the way Fender originally designed it. Eventually he made muting a choice with MusicMan and the adjustable mutes, but when the Jazz Bass was created, it was expected to run with the felt mutes engaged all the time.

Yes, and flats. I do find that once you put flats on a Jazz, it tends to close the gap a little sonically between a J and a P (w flats).

 

[LowendG]

Sitting in the mix isn't quite the same as scooping out the mix... Jazz basses actually had less of the fundamental in their tone than P-Basses.

True, but just speculating if Leo's intent was that sound. It is, to my ears often the "tightest" more "focused" sound the Jazz makes, whether the EQ curve is to your liking or not. And often the most consistent up and down the range of the instrument in a mix.

 

[SharpCat]

True, but just speculating if Leo's intent was that sound. It is, to my ears often the "tightest" more "focused" sound the Jazz makes, whether the EQ curve is to your liking or not. And often the most consistent up and down the range of the instrument in a mix.

No real way to tell, but I think Leo woulda put VT plus a 3-way switch rather than VVT if he really valued that particular sound.

 

[Michael Stanley 2112]

I had an Ibanez Roadstar II, back in the day, which I thought sounded and played better than my P (I also had a P-Bass) and it was amazing to me how many producers insisted. I use my P-Bass.

After our EP started doing pretty well (and we were in regular rotation on a couple of [smaller] local radio stations), I got up the gumption to stick to my Ibanez.

 

[LowendG]

No real way to tell, but I think Leo woulda put VT plus a 3-way switch rather than VVT if he really valued that particular sound.

Now that's an interesting take. yeah, I mean what was he thinking with the Strat? Did he feel there was a ground zero tone on the Strat--the true voice of it--and the other options were simply interesting (if maybe noisy) options?

 

[frankie5string]

Now that's an interesting take. yeah, I mean what was he thinking with the Strat? Did he feel there was a ground zero tone on the Strat--the true voice of it--and the other options were simply interesting (if maybe noisy) options?

Well, keep in mind he went with whatever his small circle of musicians wanted. He didn't think up the jazz bass or p-bass tone on his own, he made those instruments sound the way his testers wanted them to sound.
Same with the strat and the tele. He had lots of input from musicians.

 

[LowendG]

Well, keep in mind he went with whatever his small circle of musicians wanted. He didn't think up the jazz bass or p-bass tone on his own, he made those instruments sound the way his testers wanted them to sound.
Same with the strat and the tele. He had lots of input from musicians.

Yes, so...what was the impetus for the Jazz Bass sound if as the interwebs would have us all accept, the P was the be all end all of EB tone from back when the earth's crust was formed? Was he really trying to "improve" on the P, or exploring a different thang?

 

[Thegreatzambini]

Something I was wondering about...

After the invention of the electric bass in 1950's (P Bass) and the Jazz Bass in 1960, it is no secret that P Basses became the standard for studio recordings and while plenty of Jazz basses made their way onto albums in the 60's & 70's, there is one aspect of the P-Bass pertaining specifically to studio recordings that I don't think I have ever heard discussed.

Conversations typically center around how a P Bass sits in the mix, however, anyone who has worked with a producer in a studio environment has to wonder if there may have been an additional reason to prefer a P in a studio environment, especially in the 60's and 70's.

Anyone who has played a J bass with single coil pickups knows what happens if the blend of the pups isn't even, or if your fingers aren't making contact with the strings and acting as a ground...60 cycle hum. Now shielding can mitigate this to great effect, and I am not sure when cats first started to shield their basses, but shielding isn't 100% full proof.

Back to producers; in my experience, no detail is too damn small for them to care about! They live in a world of minutia and microscopic sonic details...

Which brings me to my point.

To what degree did the much quieter split P pickup play a role in the P Bass being so heavily utilized in the recording studio world of the 1960's and 70's? And to what degree did getting everyones ears used to that sound early on influence it as a preference for all these years?

It seems the same aversion to 60 cycle hum could have been a factor in live performances as well no?

View attachment 5351180

Yes, we get it …. this forum loves P basses and for the last couple years that's all you've talked about …enough already

 

[frankie5string]

Yes, so...what was the impetus for the Jazz Bass sound if as the interwebs would have us all accept, the P is the be all end all of EB tone?

It was to sell more basses... lol... It was considered the "deluxe" version. His cadre of musicians also asked for thinner necks, and a decision was made to take the offset body to the bass guitar line. Also, Fender was able to patent the body shape.

 

[Chrisk-K]

I doubt that the single coil pickup noise of the J made the P more popular in studios, given the extreme popularity of Teles and Strats in recordings.

 

[Derek Kay]

The biggest advantage of the split P must surely be the ability to raise or lower the poles under each string to produce a more even output. An immediate advantage with its introduction.

Later Leo F conceded that the reverse P configuration would produce a still more even sound. Lee Sklar is the best example I can suggest.

My reverse PJ sits OK recorded with just the P, and I only add the J for its lower growl & upper roar on certain styles.

A P bass is slightly cleaner than a J as the humbuckers are closer, but poor internal shielding is also a problem, particularly in modern situations. I had to shield everything internal to satisfy FOH in theatreland. Cavity shielding wasn't enough.
Wrap shielding the PUs and coaxial cable shielding solved the problem. Now it's cleaner than an active bass. I wish I'd known this much earlier.

 

[Bar Band Bassman]

I find it interesting that we tend to collectively think the p-bass was preferred by engineers et al because it "fits perfectly in the mix". I have a different perspective. The p-bass was the first mass-marketed electric bass. As such, it was the most ubiquitous. Bassists appreciated the portability and started showing up at sessions with them. Studios followed suit. The most obvious new tool for the job. EB-0's, Rics, etc. were not yet on the radar. I rather suspect the actual sequence of events was more along the lines of "here's this new gadget, the engineer has to figure out how to make it fit in the mix". P-basses were ubiquitous (early jazz recordings often list "Fender Bass" on the album credits, in part because when a player joined the local union, that was the way the union distinguished upright bass from electric bass). P-basses vs. other electric basses is like Microsoft vs. Apple. Apple fans insist it's a better system and it may well be, but Windows was first. Far more people know how to navigate it and it therefore continues to dominate. Never was a question of which is better, just which was first to gain widespread acceptance. IMHO>

BBB

 

[logdrum]

We need @Rib 13 -- here. He has a YT video , where he explains that the P is not probably the most recorded studio sound. At best it's anecdotal. Unless you have the data to prove it by collating all the studio notes. Studios kept on recording music after 1969 For F Sakes.
In her later years, even the queen of the wrecking crew herself, Carol Kaye used an Ibanez bass. Possibly even active. If it really needs to be a P, she would have not changed.

Just because you do not have the skill to turn more than 2 knobs does not mean you can fabricate myths into facts or the last word.

 

[Miles_ONeal]

Now that's an interesting take. yeah, I mean what was he thinking with the Strat? Did he feel there was a ground zero tone on the Strat--the true voice of it--and the other options were simply interesting (if maybe noisy) options?

I think he was just going for tonal options based on three pickup locations. The players convinced him to add the in-between, two pickup options.

 

[retslock]

I've wondered this too. I'm sure at times it was an issue - the hum. And quite likely it informed what bass some people used right outta the gate--"just grab the P, it'll be quiet!". But that said, when you think of all the famous Jazz Bass session players who played on tons of hit records--David Hood, Herbie Flowers, Joe Osborn, Jerry Jemmott, etc etc- I mean, how did they get away with it? I don't think they were all diming their pickups all the time (Joe Osborn famously used just the front). Maybe people just dealt with it like they did noisy guitars: minimize it as best you can, and make a great track. I sure don't hear hum when I listen to David Hood or Joe Osborn playing on all those famous tracks. Maybe in an isolated track you would, but in the final mix it can be a non-issue.

Is the hum a narrow frequency bandwidth? Perhaps engineers were able to reduce it significantly with eq without detracting from the bass tracks.

 

[faulknersj]

I'll throw something else into the convo here: I have played P's mostly for ages live and recording--the "sit in the mix" thing is obviously a known quantity. However...I've been digging on my Jazz lately, and I'm finding that, the both pickups dimed setting is actually the "tightest" most focused sound, and is the most even throughout the range of the instrument and dare I say, the most consistently "sit in the mix" setting. Doesn't sound like a P of course--it's like one giant humbucker spread out across the strings as opposed to one in a narrower configuration--but I wonder if Leo intended that was the "ground zero" setting for the Jazz. Then any fiddling you want to do with pickup volumes is cool, but secondary to the main tone of the bass, and if you wanna go there, deal with the potential hum (like he may have with a Strat...)

Very thought provoking man!

 

[retslock]

I also noted with the years that a P bass sounds clearer and more pronounced in outdoor events than indoors where is can boom or get muddy or just dissappear in the mix.

This could very easily be a venue issue and not an instrument issue. Very few auditoriums were built for amplified music. Even fewer pubs and clubs had any consideration of acoustics in their design.

 

[faulknersj]

Yes, we get it …. this forum loves P basses and for the last couple years that's all you've talked about …enough already

I play Jazz basses 90% of the time fyi.

The thing that made me wonder about this was playing my passive jazz with single cools this morning and hearing all that hum noise (I need to shield this bass).