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Accugroove 21" vs Bag End 18"

S

scrotimusprime

Feb 15, 2008
120
1
San Francisco
www.level12band.com
#1
Ok, so here's my situation, i'm on a 5 string heavily detuned (B# == G# in my world). i'm looking for a real low bottom end, wanna mess with people's pacemakers.

For a long time I thought an 18 inch sub was my only option. I've found bag end thanks to a different post. BUt when I was researching these I also came across a company called AccuGroove.

These guys produce a 21inch sub with an amazing range, here's the link:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Accugroove-Whappo-Grande-Bass-Cabinet?sku=480886

Specs available at: http://www.accugroove.com/

Has anyone ever used an accugroove product? Is it with almost 2 grand for this thing?

This guy sounds like its got what I want but on the other hand, I don't know if I can power it. I'm running an SVT-4pro and I'll already be powering a full stack (15, 4x10). I'm powering an 18 with it now but it seems like trying to push a 21" bad boy would just be too much.

So I don't know, long post, but what do you guys think? Anyone play detuned enough to have done something like this? 2k seems like a lot too, I can probably get away with one of the bag end 18's but I don't know.

Anyhow, thoughts appreciated. Btw, here's the bag end I'm looking at (LOTS CHEAPER):

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/prod...481220&src=3WFRWXX&ZYXSEM=0&CAWELAID=63094736
 
#2
Seems like your band is good enough to play in situations in which a PA is used. I'd say save *lots* of money and sweat by not buying any 18, and allowing the PA/sound reinforcement do its/their job and give you mega low end via the FOH mains, subs and whatnot. In concerts, the heart-stopping bass does not come from the stage gear/volume, it comes from the PA doing the sonic heavy-lifting/heavy-hitting.

Best to you, and the music on the myspace sounds well done.
 
#3
^^^^^

Well I have to agree that with a decent FOH system the 21" Whappo Grande will not be that useful but My buddy had one for a while and honestly there is nothing like it!!!!

If you don't use FOH systems and want to truly rupture organs the Whappo Grande is the way to go (albeit not the cheapest).
 
#4
The Accugroove stuff is amazing, but so is the Bag End stuff. I think if you have an ELF setup with Bag End, you can get down to 8hz. Yes, 8hz. I think that's crazy enough.

I do agree with Thunderthumbs. It's not practical to use a 21" sub on a stage generally speaking. It'll be nearly impossible to get a good mix because of the bleed and lowend feedback coming through the vocal mics. I LOVE loud stage volume, but it does present itself to be very problematic. Mike Visceglia wrote a great essay on stage setup in Bass Player magazine a while back.

But man, I sure would love to see someone try out a 21" sub sometime!
 
#5
Yea, the 21" is out of my league (pending a kidney donation) but damn, I just want to hear it. I know that rehearsals would be a lot of fun (yea, we're the kinda band who likes it loud, but we have ear plugs :bassist:)

I play with an 18 now and want to replace it. Its probably half and half when we get a stage setup with 18's (the burro in livermore has 6 or so of them scattered throughout the room, great venue for bassists ;) ). The bag end might very be the way to go, it looks pretty sharp.

But - what's an ELF system? Is that the INFRA processors I keep hearing about?
 
#6
I played through one at Jan 08 NAMM & when I hit a low B through it, it felt like I got hit by a car. You may actually be better off getting the Accugroove El Whappo 4-way. It will cover ALL the frequencies that you need so that everyone will hear you. Mark @ Accugroove answers his own phone @ (408)844-8300 & he is a very smart dude.
 
#12
Mike Shevlin said:
The Whappo 21 can easily do what it claims, the specs are conservative the the box is the perfect size to house the Beyma speaker. Here are some specs on the 21"er.
Invalid Link Removed
If you want to look at some truly great cabs, goto www.accugroove.com:spit:
Click to expand...

Show me the response graphs of the cab.

It can not do 19Hz -6dB under AES standards.

If you provide the TS parameters for the driver I'll post the predictions.

Don't make assertions about products if you can't back it up with real data.
 
#13
Mike Shevlin said:
The Whappo 21 can easily do what it claims, the specs are conservative the the box is the perfect size to house the Beyma speaker. Here are some specs on the 21"er.
Invalid Link Removed]
Click to expand...

Odd that someone would claim that the Beyma 21L50 could do what is claimed in a box that size if they are pointing to the Beyma datasheet for the driver (I didn't follow the link). There's been several threads about this. Bruce Gavin's run the numbers, I've run the numbers, Alex Claber has, no doubt Bill has taken a peek, you could almost bet Spodemaster has - and even Beyma's datasheet with graphs indicates that it is unrealistic to expect the LF extension that is claimed, about an octave off if I recall.

This doesn't mean that the Accuroove 21 isn't a big sound, but it's NOT the SAME big sound their numbers would indicate.
 
#14
greenboy said:
Odd that someone would claim that the Beyma 21L50 could do what is claimed in a box that size if they are pointing to the Beyma datasheet for the driver (I didn't follow the link). There's been several threads about this. Bruce Gavin's run the numbers, I've run the numbers, Alex Claber has, no doubt Bill has taken a peek, you could almost bet Spodemaster has - and even Beyma's datasheet with graphs indicates that it is unrealistic to expect the LF extension that is claimed, about an octave off if I recall.

This doesn't mean that the Accuroove 21 isn't a big sound, but it's NOT the SAME big sound their numbers would indicate.
Click to expand...

It is the biggest sound I have heard, and I have played through quite a few 15" and 18" cabs.

Specs mean very little IMHO compared to real world sound and application. If it sounds better but you don't agree with the specs, it still sounds better.

My 2 cents.
 
#15
I would love to see the new Bass Gear Magazine put the Accugroove stuff through the testing ringer. Even if they wouldn't meet the specs they still sound better then most of the alternatives. The Bag End system is pretty nice when you have the ELF system and a powerful enough power amp. A friend of mine has a full Bag End setup but I like it better for synths personally.
 
#17
I won't argue that it can go lower than the average bass cabinet.

But posting stretched,unrealistic non-standardized specs shouldn't be tolerated in any facet of the audio industry.

AES has some fairly straight forward guidelines. Most bass cabinet manufacturers use non standard methods of measuring frequency response, to make the numbers sound more impressive than they really are.

Tone of a cabinet is a subjective thing, if you like it great.

Doesn't excuse the use of sexed up specifications.
 
#18
jady said:
It is the biggest sound I have heard, and I have played through quite a few 15" and 18" cabs.

Specs mean very little IMHO compared to real world sound and application. If it sounds better but you don't agree with the specs, it still sounds better.
Click to expand...

Funny, but they sound just as good with Beyma's numbers and predicted response graphs as they do with Accugroove's inflated by nearly one octave claims on their website.

And frankly there's plenty of other 18 and 21 inch drivers these days being loaded into subwoofer boxes if not by companies selling in the bass guitar sector that are every bit as amazing, and most of them don't have a Specsmanship surcharge.

Specs mean very little IMHO compared to real world sound and application.
Click to expand...

Actually the two are supposed to go hand in hand, so that specs can actually be of some use to assemble/design systems. In the SR world and elsewhere accurate specs for those who can interpret them certainly can be an aid both before and after purchase. But in the bass world they just seem to be a sales thing.
 
#19
I don't know how much of the ELF/INFRA tech papers and stuff Bag End still has up on their site, but I can say that if you are looking for low sub bass that they are capable of delivering what they claim, and they've made efforts to keep it honest and make it clear what you are really going to get.

I've been around them and some other ultra-low servodriven solutions and it's really a whole different world than even many club and venue subwoofer users and operators may be accustomed to. But there are some caveats. If you want a lot of SPL at 18 Hz or 20 or whatever to keep up with a high-SPL mains system you need more than one box and the appropriate power amp - you will still have a lot of cartage. In some ways this stuff makes better sense for fixed installations where subsonics are actually part of the program material.

However, if you are looking to supplement an existing system that can reach well down to say 60 Hz or so with some easily percievable ultralow presence you can certainly get the real deal from the Bag End INFRA/ELF stuff in a smaller more portable config, and it's an eye opener for people who have mistaken 60 Hz as being 30 Hz, to say the least.

But whether most bass guitars and bass guitarists - even low-tuners - actually will consider true low end extension that low the boon they thought it would be is another question.
 

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