Accugroove 21" vs Bag End 18"

[scrotimusprime]

To the OP.
A SVT4PRO won't do it. Not even close.

yea, i've been doing quite a bit of research. Seems like the SVT4-PRO isn't as powerful as the guys at guitar center would like you to believe.

Seems like the best way to run an SVT4 PRO is with 2 4Ohm Cabs, once on each power amp (although if you could find 2Ohm, maybe?). The Whappo Grande is rated for what, about 800watts for normal operation? That's a pretty heavy load and I imagine you don't get the right punch you need with only a fraction of the power available. Speculating on that stuff though.

I'm really leaning toward one of the bagend products - although I don't know if it would be worth my time to look into a higher end 18. Basically something I can drive pretty effectively at 490watts (can you guys guess why?). I really liked what one person had said about the BE with the ELF(Infra) setup - so The new question seems to be more like -

Do I find another 18 that's awesome or is it worth it to go with the bag end + Infra processor?

I'm thinking I might rather just have the "awesome" 18 and avoid filling more rackspace - although I do love all the blinkie lights.

 

[alexclaber]

If you want to go seriously low without adding an extra amp to deal with the Infra processor's output then one or two Acme Low-B4s will do the job. The Whappo Grande will go a bit louder than one Low-B4 but not as low whilst the Bag End ELF 18" will go lower but not as loud.

Alex

 

[VicDamone]

Your comments suggest you don't actually understand what you're talking about. Any measurements of cabs should be taken at 2.83V @ 1m for an 8 ohm cab or 2V @ 1m for a 4 ohm cab, outdoors in half space (i.e. cab on the ground). Distance and voltage can be increased proportionally to give an indication of power compression characteristics. The amp and mic should both be calibrated.

The only way AccuGroove could have achieved these specs through measurement is with the cab with in a small underground room to get massive cabin gain (as happens with car subwoofers) which would be a very dishonest approach. The more likely situation is they plucked the numbers out of thin air.

There is no magic in speaker design - you cannot get a quart in a pint pot yet that is exactly what AccuGroove have claimed to do.

Alex

Alex, It seems we've gotten off on the wrong foot. I apologize for any confrontational tone that may have accompanied my responses as that was not my intention. I have no knowledge of measuring speaker systems outdoors so it's imperative that I acquiesce to your experience in this measuring as well as your methods for calibrating microphones and amplifiers.

Could you help us all understand how AccuGroove has become so successful in the small niche industry of high end Bass speaker systems and get away with the measurement claims your questioning? To be clear, I'm not asking this to be condescending or sarcastic, I'm simply trying to, as you say, understand.

Again my apologies

Vic
_____

 

[Kindness]

Could you help us all understand how AccuGroove has become so successful in the small niche industry of high end Bass speaker systems and get away with the measurement claims your questioning?

There is no one to hold them accountable other than themselves and their customers and most customers lack the knowledge to question their claims. This is (unfortunately) true in hi-fi as well as musical instrument applications. This is not true in pro sound applications. Accugroove is in no way the only manufacturer that publishes questionable specs. In the hi-fi and musical instrument segments, it is the norm rather than the exception.

 

[edbutler3]

There is no one to hold them accountable other than themselves and their customers and most customers lack the knowledge to question their claims. This is (unfortunately) true in hi-fi as well as musical instrument applications. This is not true in pro sound applications. Accugroove is in no way the only manufacturer that publishes questionable specs. In the hi-fi and musical instrument segments, it is the norm rather than the exception.

Here's an example of (almost certainly) inflated specs from a different company: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

They are claiming that the new Hartke HyDrive 115 goes down to 20Hz!

Ummm, what? At something like -24db???

 

[James Hart]

Could you help us all understand how AccuGroove has become so successful in the small niche industry of high end Bass speaker systems and get away with the measurement claims your questioning?

beyond awesome marketing... I'd say (as an ex Accugroove owner) that despite attempts to circumvent psychics, they do make a nice thick sounding cab.

 

[alexclaber]

Could you help us all understand how AccuGroove has become so successful in the small niche industry of high end Bass speaker systems and get away with the measurement claims your questioning?

These good gentlemen have already answered this very succinctly:

There is no one to hold them accountable other than themselves and their customers and most customers lack the knowledge to question their claims.

beyond awesome marketing... I'd say (as an ex Accugroove owner) that despite attempts to circumvent psychics, they do make a nice thick sounding cab.

That pretty much sums it up!

When I get the time to do some accurate measurements on my own cabs then I will. In the meantime I might expand my FAQ to include specs quoted in the style of various manufacturers, so you can compare like with like.

AccuGroove aren't the only offender on the silly specs front but their exorbitant prices and impressive marketing make their silly specs that much more believable. Unfortunately however perfect you make a speaker you can't beat physics - so the key parameters of SPL, Fs, Vas and Qts all interact in annoying ways. Go lower by increasing cone weight and you lose sensitivity. Get that sensitivity back by increasing magnet strength and you lose resonance and thus bottom. Increase Qts and you raise Fs so although you get back the bottom it cuts off higher. Lower Fs and keep Qts and sensitivity high enough and you raise Vas so you need a much bigger box. And so on. It's a right pain! It would be nice if one could just throw money at the problem but physics doesn't care how much money you have - unless you can spend that money on roadies to carry much bigger cabs!

Alex

 

[CrackBass]

exagerrating claims is par for the course for bass cab manufacturers. almost every one is guilty (eden, swr, peavey, epifani, etc.....) i guess whoever started it forced the others to follow suit, otherwise they figured potential customers would rule out their products without giving them a listen, based on specs alone. i think this has just gotten out of hand over the years and become a self propagating process. no one wants to hear about the slick new cab that goes all the way down to 60hz, although this is more realistic of the majority of cabs on the market. as far as accugroove, from a quality standpoint, they are top notch. they use premium drivers and components and seem to have a sound that many bassists rave about. however, they have gone so far past the point of exagerration into pure fantasy with their specs, some of the speaker savvy guys on this board are calling bs. a good example is the dickens cab. 102db sensitivity and -6db at 29hz from 2 12's in that box? not possible with any driver known to man at this present time. beyma's are good drivers (some would argue the best) but they still are limited by the laws of physics. that is saying that one dickens 212 will equal the bass sensitivity of 2, 14 cubic foot, definimax 4012 loaded bill fitzmaurice tuba 30's. if two 12's in the dickens magic box can have that kind of output then bill is wasting his time with his horn loaded enclosures, and furthermore you would see many pro-sound outfits using stacks of them as subwoofers. as expensive as they are they are still way cheaper than the pro-level 218 bins that cannot boast that sensitivity claim either.

that said the dickens i'm sure is a fine cab and sounds wonderful, but most bassists hear loud 50hz and think that it's 30hz so nobody is the wiser. i just wish accugroove didn't have to inflate their specs to compete with the likes of eden and others. (although i totally understand and in their shoes i would probably have done the same thing)

 

[VicDamone]

If you want to go seriously low without adding an extra amp to deal with the Infra processor's output then one or two Acme Low-B4s will do the job. The Whappo Grande will go a bit louder than one Low-B4 but not as low whilst the Bag End ELF 18" will go lower but not as loud.

Alex

Your comparing two bass cabinets to a subwoofer system that's useless past 150 Hz. The Bag End ELF system not only goes lower and louder, there is gain control and way more resolution and it does it with much less power. Not only will it need a power amp, ELF processor, you'll need a main cabinet.

 

[Mike Shevlin]

Well there's no question about my mental health, I'm a goner.

Thank you for my new signature Vic!

 

[alexclaber]

Your comparing two bass cabinets to a subwoofer system that's useless past 150 Hz. The Bag End ELF system not only goes lower and louder, there is gain control and way more resolution and it does it with much less power. Not only will it need a power amp, ELF processor, you'll need a main cabinet.

Actually I'm comparing one fullrange bass cab, with one bottom only bass cab, with a ELF subwoofer. With the Whappo Grande 99.9% of bassists will need another cab for the higher midrange upwards. With the ELF all bassists will need something to get any midrange at all. With the Acme you get more bass extension that the Whappo Grande, more max LF SPL than the ELF yet the Acme can do all your mids and highs too. How convenient!

I'm not sure what you're referring to when it comes to resolution? The ELF system does give excellent transient response but I've never come across anyone searching for better resolution in the lows. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that the Infra/ELF system needs less power - it works by operating the woofer entirely below resonance and thus the integrator adds a 12dB/octave boost from resonance downwards. Rather like a simplified Linkwitz Transform system. That 12dB/octave boost means that for every octave you go below resonance the amp power required increases over tenfold - i.e. you need a LOT of power.

The Infra 18 has 96dB @ 80Hz sensitivity, which the Low-B4 matches. At 41Hz the Infra 18 is at 87dB, the Low-B4 at 93dB. At 31Hz the Infra is at 83dB, the Low-B4 at 90dB. At 15Hz the Infra 18 is at 70dB, the Low-B4 at 66dB.

Alex

 

[spode master]

Your comparing two bass cabinets to a subwoofer system that's useless past 150 Hz. The Bag End ELF system not only goes lower and louder, there is gain control and way more resolution and it does it with much less power. Not only will it need a power amp, ELF processor, you'll need a main cabinet.

Just a quick point. Any 21" speaker regardless of design is going to make a Horrible fullrange Its going to start beaming after 500Hz. If I owned a Wappo I would Cross it over no Higher than 150Hz.

 

[knuckle_head]

The ELF system does give excellent transient response but I've never come across anyone searching for better resolution in the lows.

Yeah you have...