Accugroove 21" vs Bag End 18"

[scrotimusprime]

i think my dual electrovoice evx 18" cabs would eat that for breakfast. i think it might be cheaper to make one than the elwarpo... bill said there is no benefit to having flat to 28 hz ect? thats like driving with a dirty windshield, trying to see. in my opinion, the sound coming from your rig should be better than the pa sound to give you inspiration and propell and push you to greatness. otherwise id stil be playing old tv speakers in cardboard boxes onstage. johnny a / staind

Wow... well said. I'm going to just let that one soak in a bit.


And this post reminds me of a good quote from wayne's world:

"We're not worthy... we're not worthy!"

 

[svtb15]

I think you would be surprised what stage volume can do even in a large room.. I have done a few gigs at madison square garden.. and used just two 4x10s.. prior to soundcheck i walked out to FOH with PA off.. my 2 4x10 were very audible, you can tell its a bass easily,, the cabs looked like two small postage stamps at that distance and the delay was too much to ever play in time without proper monitoring.. but even two 4x10 can be heard well in an arena.. then turn on the house and va va va voom.. if it were a low volume gig i could see even those two 4x10s getting in the way of house mix... I later had them flown from under the stage coming up through a grill.

I would like to use a huge and wide rig on stage, since the wider the rig on stage , the further the guitar player is from me..

ahhh, how true it is!

in this day and age, with PA and SR being what it is, the bass rig is now almost exclusively for the enjoyment of the bassist. truthfully, only perhaps the first two rows of audience can hear your rig, and i doubt they actually care if you're using Eden or Ampeg, a 4x10 or a 2x15.
any chest thump that hits the audience comes entirely from the PA these days. so the question becomes:
which would you prefer to hear yourself from, while onstage? the Accugroove, or the Bag End?
however, i'd stress accuracy and clarity for the onstage rig, as we do have to hear ourselves. perhaps a 2x10? the Acme cabs are surprisingly well rounded and full spectrum. i should think you'd be able to hear yourself quite well, even on the G#.
just something to think about.

 

[TrevorOfDoom]

I think you would be surprised what stage volume can do even in a large room.. I have done a few gigs at madison square garden.. and used just two 4x10s.. prior to soundcheck i walked out to FOH with PA off.. my 2 4x10 were very audible, you can tell its a bass easily,, the cabs looked like two small postage stamps at that distance and the delay was too much to ever play in time without proper monitoring.. but even two 4x10 can be heard well in an arena.. then turn on the house and va va va voom.. if it were a low volume gig i could see even those two 4x10s getting in the way of house mix... I later had them flown from under the stage coming up through a grill.

I would like to use a huge and wide rig on stage, since the wider the rig on stage , the further the guitar player is from me..

true, but you did hit upon something important.
you say that your two 4x10's could be heard, and i have no doubt about that, but you said that they would get in the way of the house mix. and that's the rub right there. getting in the way of the house mix. because it doesn't matter how awesome your rig sounds, if the FOH guy can't get the whole band under control you'll sound like shite everytime.
and i'd never say that 2 4x10's weren't enough, but they're perhaps too much for most gigs.
the question here is: just because you can, does that mean you should? more often than not, no, you shouldn't.

 

[Magman]

Those of us at the bottom of the food chain don't play in places with good PA very often.

My bass sound is integral to the whole aesthetic of the band, and feeling the stage shaking helps put me (and hopefully everyone else in the vicinity) in the 'zone' so I cart round a largeish rig. So all chest thump is down to me.

...and who doesn't like big speakers, big amps and loud floor shaking noises?... for all Bill F's technical asceticism --- I suspect he does as well

I'm really curious about the acmes may have to pick one up at some point - their specs and reviews look really good.

ahhh, how true it is!

in this day and age, with PA and SR being what it is, the bass rig is now almost exclusively for the enjoyment of the bassist. truthfully, only perhaps the first two rows of audience can hear your rig, and i doubt they actually care if you're using Eden or Ampeg, a 4x10 or a 2x15.
any chest thump that hits the audience comes entirely from the PA these days. so the question becomes:
which would you prefer to hear yourself from, while onstage? the Accugroove, or the Bag End?
however, i'd stress accuracy and clarity for the onstage rig, as we do have to hear ourselves. perhaps a 2x10? the Acme cabs are surprisingly well rounded and full spectrum. i should think you'd be able to hear yourself quite well, even on the G#.
just something to think about.

 

[Magman]

Did these bands include techno or unusual electronic acts?
I'm wondering if genre is an issue here.

Also, are the mixing engineers are rolling off all those deep lows out of habit from say the kick/bass guitar?

Just seems weird that there would be no significant material in the 30hz area when a 5 string bass, a synthesizer or some larger drums are capable of creating it (at least I think some drums are).

Because there's not enough sonic information down there to require flat response. That's not a personal opinion, it's backed up by hundreds of RTAs I've taken of national and international acts playing in a major venue through million dollar systems with no limitations. Even though these systems are capable of going flat to at least 25Hz the only material I've ever measured that low is from truck traffic on the highway a half mile away.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

My bass sound is integral to the whole aesthetic of the band, and feeling the stage shaking helps put me (and hopefully everyone else in the vicinity) in the 'zone' so I cart round a largeish rig. So all chest thump is down to me.

Same here. The question is: Where does that thump come from?
The answer is: Not from below 40 Hz.

 

[svtb15]

agreed..
Thats when i decided to go with my rig under stage coming thorough grills.. FOH liked it but then he had to deal with a whinny guitar player that "had to get his tone" ughhhhhhh

Some guys today have huge rigs onstage... and most likely sound better than FOH rig... I think a guy in this thread has the nicest rig i have ever seen.. he knows who he is and i wont call attention.... and its perfect for his gig...
on the other hand in my situation with only 2 4x10s was not helping the foh mix , but his rig could only enhance the gig situation...

I hope i make sense.. I am not an engineer but i do know my **** and have thousands of gigs and maxi to mini rigs do them all.
The BAgend ELF.. I love it.. but not in big rooms for me..

true, but you did hit upon something important.
you say that your two 4x10's could be heard, and i have no doubt about that, but you said that they would get in the way of the house mix. and that's the rub right there. getting in the way of the house mix. because it doesn't matter how awesome your rig sounds, if the FOH guy can't get the whole band under control you'll sound like shite everytime.
and i'd never say that 2 4x10's weren't enough, but they're perhaps too much for most gigs.
the question here is: just because you can, does that mean you should? more often than not, no, you shouldn't.

 

[scrotimusprime]

Same here. The question is: Where does that thump come from?
The answer is: Not from below 40 Hz.

Not necessarily. You've got percussive notes from from the bass in that range, in addition you'll need a little rumble to go with your thump.

 

[svtb15]

Same here. The question is: Where does that thump come from?
The answer is: Not from below 40 Hz.

I disagree,
Thump can go way down low...
you may not hear it, but you sure as **** will feel it.
There is nothing more fun than people being able to feel the air going in and out of a beer bottle from room air pressure change when you play your bass..

Decades ago I used a 2 x18 custom Audio Fabricators Scoop cab powered by a crown PSA2 with a custom birch 4x10 jbl x two jbl bullets box on top powered by a BGW . It was a PA..

You could feel the air going in and out of your lungs if you held your mouth open while playing low notes.. it breathed for you


Chicks loved it!


But I hear what you are saying but in Theater and cinema and some music situations the ELF is something to experience..
Sort of an audio holographic event in a way.. A little more new school i would say.

 

[Magman]

Yeah - I've kind of given up on sub 40hz ......

key to a fat low B or A string is imo second harmonic which seems to the 50-60hz region. Its hard enough getting THAT loud enough in terms of cabs and amps.

Same here. The question is: Where does that thump come from?
The answer is: Not from below 40 Hz.

 

[Magman]

That sounds pretty wild.
This thread is giving me cabinet envy. Stairs are an issue though, I need some sort of pulley system from my basement to the surface!

...and LOL on the women.... theres some wisdom there about the power of the low end.....

I disagree,
Thump can go way down low...
you may not hear it, but you sure as **** will feel it.
There is nothing more fun than people being able to feel the air going in and out of a beer bottle from room air pressure change when you play your bass..

Decades ago I used a 2 x18 custom Audio Fabricators Scoop cab powers with a crown PSA2 and a custom birch 4x10 jbl box powered by a BGW .

You could feel the air going in and out of your lungs if you held your mouth open while playing low notes.. it breathed for you


Chicks loved it!

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Not necessarily. You've got percussive notes from from the bass in that range, in addition you'll need a little rumble to go with your thump.

I hate to drag this out, and will depart this dead horse now, but first will point out for the benefit of those who may be interested that your point is based on your assumption of what your system is producing. An RTA to back that assumption up would be required to elevate it to the status of fact.
The vast majority of those who think that their rigs are doing anything significant below 40 Hz would be shocked to see a readout of what's really happening. Most would find that what they think they're getting and what's actually there is off by a full octave.

 

[svtb15]

Yes i have picture of it somewhere.. but it was the late 70s - early 80s with no digital cameras yet.

I kid you not about the chicks digging the low end.. That should be a subject on Myth Busters.. Chicks and INFRA lows..
Dont whales use INFRA for communication. over long distances.. NO the chicks were not anything like that.. I was just digressing.

That sounds pretty wild.
This thread is giving me cabinet envy. Stairs are an issue though, I need some sort of pulley system from my basement to the surface!

...and LOL on the women.... theres some wisdom there about the power of the low end.....

 

[scrotimusprime]

I hate to drag this out, and will depart this dead horse now, but first will point out for the benefit of those who may be interested that your point is based on your assumption of what your system is producing. An RTA to back that assumption up would be required to elevate it to the status of fact.

Here's a statement of pft:

Yes, my point was based on an assumption, and a fairly reasonable one at that. Granted, I don't have time to take a scope to my setup, research on the net would indicate that for my particular uses, I'd probably get in the below 40hz range (and if I'm not there already, I'm sure I can find a way to get the numbers to make me right.)

Do you talk to everyone like that or just people you don't know?

 

[spode master]

Because there's not enough sonic information down there to require flat response. That's not a personal opinion, it's backed up by hundreds of RTAs I've taken of national and international acts playing in a major venue through million dollar systems with no limitations. Even though these systems are capable of going flat to at least 25Hz the only material I've ever measured that low is from truck traffic on the highway a half mile away.

This is true for most recordings also, so for a majority of live music. Having Bass response even bellow 40 and sometimes 80Hz is not important.

But there are exceptions, so for the minority exceptions, there have been very few options to even go that deep until recent years. I'll see if I can post a decent snip of my rig at a bar I was playing at and you guys can put some good headphones and can hear the SQ of having extended LF response is like.

 

[CrackBass]

i believe bill stated in another thread that one of the "national touring acts" that he rta'ed was the wailers. i imagine if they don't have significant sub 40hz in their front of house sound then no band would (besides techno or sampled stuff)

 

[svtb15]

I recently did a neat bar gig with my old Thunderfunk head. It was a low volume gig . well medium volume at least..
I was running my Bag End S15B-D cab.. Single 15 but very deep. the cab is 24 inches deep.
Anyway, I know the cabs specs and its roll off area.. But since i was not playing that loud i figured why not have fun , push the amp and speaker "as far as it can go" and use the TF semi Para EQ and boost 30Hz..
I was only playing my 4 string bass that night, so what is that about 41 hz or so to all you spec maniacs??
I almost always say screw the specs.. what does it sound like . that is what matters. **** specs.
And by boosting the 30 hz allot i got to feel more AIR move in the room.. And suddenly everyone started to dance... mmmm
and the chicks got crazy!!! So what is it with chicks and SUBS...

I don't care what any spec says,, I do know that I feel the air when boosting the 30 Hz, and the net result. regardless of what anyone's theory may be..

 

[svtb15]

This is true for most recordings also, so for a majority of live music. Having Bass response even bellow 40 and sometimes 80Hz is not important.

.

Not true, Maybe in the day of Vinyl records. Because if you put too much Lows into the master you would need much larger grooves which would cut down on the amount of time that you could get on a side.
That is where mastering was an Art Form for vinyl.. Well stil is but really back then..
With today technology of Digital formats you don't have to worry about that as much,, You are still limited to time on a CD since mastering will not allow over 70 minutes or so. Since the CD manufacturer will not guarantee their medium of non defect over that time limit.. Even though the CD may say 80 minutes or so.
Its funny because my FOH guy and I were taling about this just the other day.. We were talking anout currnet day and the olden days of vinyl.. My FOH guy has 4 grammys for engineering and mixing. masteing so i will take his word as gold..

 

[svtb15]

Do they not have significant sub 40 because the system will not reproduce the sub 40? Just because it was not reproduced does not mean it was not at the source.
Some guys like to roll that low off simply to tighten up the subs some... conserve power some to get more headroom....and get rid of a mess down low at times.
But i think the future and even currently with Digital amps with processing like the Meyer rigs and Fiber Optic Snakes and Distro, you will be seeing more and more of concert systems that can and will do INFRA very well and create a new listener experience.. Even large concert halls are starting to not sound like a giant fish tank. They are making them sound pretty good..

i believe bill stated in another thread that one of the "national touring acts" that he rta'ed was the wailers. i imagine if they don't have significant sub 40hz in their front of house sound then no band would (besides techno or sampled stuff)

 

[Magman]

I totally believe you about the ladies...a topic not covered much here...ppl really like low end...thus the popularity of disco/techno/house especially among the girls....(tho thats died out a lot - ppl going back to live music)
...theres always someone posting "why do I need more than a 210 and a 100 watt amp" on the forum.....well....if you want women in the audience to have ANY idea of what you do behind the singer and guitarist, other than just being the tall shy dude....

Once you're married, you can go back to the 2x10

Yes i have picture of it somewhere.. but it was the late 70s - early 80s with no digital cameras yet.

I kid you not about the chicks digging the low end.. That should be a subject on Myth Busters.. Chicks and INFRA lows..
Dont whales use INFRA for communication. over long distances.. NO the chicks were not anything like that.. I was just digressing.