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Accugroove 21" vs Bag End 18"

#21
greenboy said:
But whether most bass guitars and bass guitarists - even low-tuners - actually will consider true low end extension that low the boon they thought it would be is another question.
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I really didn't know what to expect when I built my BS-212's. Having fundamental response that low is really different. I normally EQ in a lot of extra low end on the 30Hz eq on my SVT PRO 3. This helps boost fundamental in relationship to 2nd harmonic, and give a little more of an equal loudness slope to the sub bass output.

After playing in front of a rig with so much Sub Bass for an hour or two, it feels a bit like getting off a boat or a roller coaster when you stop. I've even found it a little upsetting to my stomach.

High output sub bass is like a presence in the air. Its like a Diesel truck idling and the noise makes your ears throb.
 
#23
GreyBeard said:
115 DB sensitivity :eek:
This would be fun to play around with.
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Yeeeeeeaaah. Considering many low-tuning bass guitarists haven't experienced maybe even 95 dB (1/4 as loud) throughout that passband in any large personal rig, it would be a real epiphany. 105 dB sensitivity (1/2 as loud as the Adamson spec) that low is more than impressive if the power handling is high and the acoustic compression only moderate.
 
#25
I've had the AG 21", hated it...

My BE loaded Mesa Diesel 18" KILLED it, guess what I still own(James Hart LOVED my BE 2x10/1X18 set-up at the NJ GTG)...

IMO, you can't go wrong with any of the BE cabs, they flat out work & are much more affordable(they NEVER advertise either, after all these years)...

If you have the $$$ & are serious, look into the Meyers stuff, top of the line equipment.

my $0.02
~S~

PS: I tune to low "A" & "G#" & use a Crown MA2402 for power.
 
#26
billfitzmaurice said:
Read the fine print: 2x2 ohms...2.83v That's a one ohm load, into whiich 2.83 v is eight watts. That makes the one watt sensitivity 106dB, which is as much as a direct radiator cab is capable of.
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Too, they certainly could gain some clarity when describing what's actually going on there: Two 2-ohm voice coils, designed I think so that each one is driven by one side of a 2-channel power amp capable of sustained 2-ohm operation (and with electrical service to match of course) with jumpered/parallel input signal...
 
#27
I tune to low A and use a Eminence Kappalite 3015LF or two in 3.8 cf boxes tuned to 46.5 Hz. This gives a real powerful nonexcursion-limited 55 Hz (first overtone of that A) that not too many bass cabs are capable of. If I didn't mind more real estate and wanted to get more ridiculous yet I'd go to 4.5 cf space for each driver, or do some neo subwoofer drivers in the megawatt range, then cross over to a midrange-and-up enclosure with a couple of high-sensitivity 18Sound 10" screamers and a BMS compression driver on a waveguide.
 
#29
Just get Dr. Bass to build you something...

I have the 3-way 1580 with an upgraded Beyma G40 15" speaker in it... The whole thing is rated at 700W RMS/1400W peak @ 8 ohms... They have a 4 ohm option now... The lowest usable frequency on the thing is 28 Hz...

I play with sub-bass tuning with my lowest string tuned to E0, 1 octave below standard E on an electric bass.

I am using a Tech 21 RPM, and a QSC PLX1804 with it. I have no problems with it, and my low E string is loud and clear... Basically the cabinet kicks complete *ss!!! And it's much cheaper than AG and Bag End... And I can take my rig in a NYC cab in one go...

THSL
 
#31
the4stringking said:
All these frequencies mean nothing compared to how they actually sound.
Example A: Acme Low B. These cabinets embarass your average 15 or 18.
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How something sounds again falls into the realm of the subjective. And different people have different, preferences.

I'm sure the Acme Low B' is a fine cabinet.

If the frequencies mean nothing, than it wouldn't take much to write songs, compose music, or arrange harmonies.

Do you like to have your bass well intonated, and well tuned?

I will start the first improvisational intermodulation band using all non linear mixers to combine all of the instruments. Super Awsome!
 
#32
Here's a graph of the beyma 21 in a box using the OD of the Accugrove (Green about 6cu'), and a graph of the Beyma in a larger "Hi-Fi" Vented enclosure (yellow about 14cu').

Beyma21.jpg
 
#33
And here is a dirrect comparison of 4 lab 12's in a 12cu' vented box vs the 21" Wappo Driver in the "Optimized Hi Fi" 14 cu' vented box!!

And the 4 labs can handle 600more watts RMS giving them almost 2dB more output down low!!!

LabsVsWappos.jpg
 
#34
Be sure to do your homework so you don't accidentally buy a Bag End ELF/INFRA sub without also buying the (required) ELF/INFRA processor. The Musician's Friend catalog was a bit unclear on whether that particular unit requires it, but I think it does. You can get the final word on the Bag End site, but it might take a little searching. (They don't seem to update so often.)

Unless you find a good deal on a used one, that INFRA processor is going to raise the total price close to what the Whappo Grande costs. Unfortunately I've never heard either of these units in action, so I can't speak for how they sound -- although from what I've read I'm pretty interested in hearing a Bag End INFRA system. Bag End makes a 21" sub too BTW, and IIRC their specs say it can put out a lot more decibels of sub-bass that the 18".

I have some interest in this area because I'm going to be getting a Knuckle Quake bass with a low F# string. I'd like to hear how that sounds on a system that can put out 24Hz at around -8db relative to its 60Hz volume.
 
#35
billfitzmaurice said:
Read the fine print: 2x2 ohms...2.83v That's a one ohm load, into whiich 2.83 v is eight watts. That makes the one watt sensitivity 106dB, which is as much as a direct radiator cab is capable of.
Click to expand...
:hmm: that jargin is over my head but I do understand 106db. I hate say this but I have a Whappo Jr that has a fair amount of low end. I often have to roll off the lowest EQ slider to keep it from rattling everything in the rack and the latches on the road case.
 
#36
edbutler3 said:
Be sure to do your homework so you don't accidentally buy a Bag End ELF/INFRA sub without also buying the (required) ELF/INFRA processor. The Musician's Friend catalog was a bit unclear on whether that particular unit requires it, but I think it does. You can get the final word on the Bag End site, but it might take a little searching. (They don't seem to update so often.)

Unless you find a good deal on a used one, that INFRA processor is going to raise the total price close to what the Whappo Grande costs. Unfortunately I've never heard either of these units in action, so I can't speak for how they sound -- although from what I've read I'm pretty interested in hearing a Bag End INFRA system. Bag End makes a 21" sub too BTW, and IIRC their specs say it can put out a lot more decibels of sub-bass that the 18".

I have some interest in this area because I'm going to be getting a Knuckle Quake bass with a low F# string. I'd like to hear how that sounds on a system that can put out 24Hz at around -8db relative to its 60Hz volume.
Click to expand...

If you can find the TS parameters for the Infra21 driver I can model it, and make a good Half space guess of what is possible with that driver.

The 12cu' 4X Lab 12 cab that I just compared to the Wappo will be -6dB at about 23Hz, so better than anticipated.

I don't think that is possible with a sealed box in relationship to Max SPL at 60Hz. Sealed subs can be made flat down very low but they are SPL limited, by maximum power maximum excursion.

Antone-
 
#38
James Hart said:
a couple guys here on TB run the ELF/INFRA cabs WITHOUT the processor... obviously you don't go as low, but they work fine as standard cabs.
Click to expand...

Its almost true, the ELF/Infra processor is a glorified 12dB per octave Bass Boost.

Look up an integrator circuit, its rather rudimentary.

The Dual integrator is just two of the integrators run in series.

The more complex part of the circuits are the limiters and the, range adjuster.

The box itself is capable of getting just as loud down low with any appropriate EQ circuit, but total loudness is limited to Max power handling at that part of the boxes response curve.
 
#39
I have played Bagend with the ELF... It is the ****! You need to have the processor.
Specs say it does 8 hz... I beleive it.. It is deeper than deep... But **** the specs..
yeah strings on the bass don't do 8 Hz but other aspects do.. thumb sounds, plucking thumping will... and those things do add to low freq energy that really makes it very up close and real...
But like i said you need the processor..
I have scaled back so that sort of rig is not where my head is at anymore... but knock yourself out,, its is fun
 
#40
spode master said:
How something sounds again falls into the realm of the subjective. And different people have different, preferences.

I'm sure the Acme Low B' is a fine cabinet.

If the frequencies mean nothing, than it wouldn't take much to write songs, compose music, or arrange harmonies.

Do you like to have your bass well intonated, and well tuned?

I will start the first improvisational intermodulation band using all non linear mixers to combine all of the instruments. Super Awsome!
Click to expand...

I said they mean nothing compared to how they actually sound. What I was trying to say was a cabinet's specs on paper don't really mean as much as the actual sound.
You didn't have to get all sarcastic on me, and try to make fun of me on the internet. (which, imo, is epic fail)
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