Accugroove 21" vs Bag End 18"

[Magman]

So essentially the bag end infra capable cabs just have a lot of xmax?

If you get a powerful amp, goose the 30hz area EQ and run through a limiter, you have an improvised ELF processor?

 

[spode master]

I cant really speak for the XMAX of the Bag end driver as I don't know what it is. But I would hope that one of their design criteria is that the drivers have enough Xmax to operate at Max power as low as possible. A little extra is even better.

You can approximate the slope with some Parametrics, maybe even graphic.

They make some claims about the Integrator Helping keep the phase better and making it seem louder. I'll take that with a grain of Salt.

The one thing that one must understand about any Sealed cab is You take a sweep of the frequency response at maximum power with no EQ, the resulting 12dB per octave roll off slope represents the loudest that that speaker will get.

If the box is 3dB down at 50Hz and its Max out put at 50Hz is 120db, the max output @ 25Hz will be 108dB.

That means if you want Constant Flat response down to 25Hz, your total output will be limited to 108dB.

 

[spode master]

I said they mean nothing compared to how they actually sound. What I was trying to say was a cabinet's specs on paper don't really mean as much as the actual sound.
You didn't have to get all sarcastic on me, and try to make fun of me on the internet. (which, imo, is epic fail)
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Yah sorry. I'm a little grumpy today.
Just dwelling on my Epic Failures.

 

[edbutler3]

a couple guys here on TB run the ELF/INFRA cabs WITHOUT the processor... obviously you don't go as low, but they work fine as standard cabs.

Interesting. I thought I had read somewhere that they'd sound awful without the processor -- but I don't remember whose opinion that was...

Its almost true, the ELF/Infra processor is a glorified 12dB per octave Bass Boost.

Look up an integrator circuit, its rather rudimentary.

The Dual integrator is just two of the integrators run in series.

The more complex part of the circuits are the limiters and the, range adjuster.

The box itself is capable of getting just as loud down low with any appropriate EQ circuit, but total loudness is limited to Max power handling at that part of the boxes response curve.

So if I understand you correctly, I think you're saying that with a sealed box you can apply an EQ'd bass boost that's the inverse of the speaker's drop-off in the response curve? And that's the main thing that the INFRA circuit is doing?

EDIT: I see you pretty much answered my question while I was typing it.

 

[spiritbass]

I would second the notion/suggestion of improving your FOH system. If you have a circular saw and jig saw, you could build a couple of Bill Fitzmauice's Titan 48's. Big boom for your buck...

 

[billfitzmaurice]

So if I understand you correctly, I think you're saying that with a sealed box you can apply an EQ'd bass boost that's the inverse of the speaker's drop-off in the response curve? And that's the main thing that the INFRA circuit is doing?

That's exactly what it does, the technical term being a Linkwitz Transform Circuit. It supplies a 12dB/octave boost to counter the 12dB/octave rolloff of a sealed speaker below the system resonant frequency. The downfall is that for each octave below fb that 12dB of boost requires 16 times the power and enough driver xmax to make use of it for equal output. But in any event flat response to even 28Hz, let alone 8Hz, is of absolutely no benefit whatsoever where electric bass or pro-sound PA is concerned, so there's no point to having the ability to deliver it.

 

[edbutler3]

That's exactly what it does, the technical term being a Linkwitz Transform Circuit. It supplies a 12dB/octave boost to counter the 12dB/octave rolloff of a sealed speaker below the system resonant frequency. The downfall is that for each octave below fb that 12dB of boost requires 16 times the power and enough driver xmax to make use of it for equal output. But in any event flat response to even 28Hz, let alone 8Hz, is of absolutely no benefit whatsoever where electric bass or pro-sound PA is concerned, so there's no point to having the ability to deliver it.

Thanks for providing the technical term. Googling "Linkwitz Transform" brought up a lot of good information.

Could you explain a little more about why, as you say, "flat response to even 28Hz, let alone 8Hz, is of absolutely no benefit whatsoever where electric bass or pro-sound PA is concerned"...? I've seen this statement a number of times, but I can't remember seeing an explanation of why.

At first I was thinking it was because the omni-directional low frequencies would bleed into all the microphones -- but don't most vocal and instrument mics have a drop-off in low frequency response similar to speaker drivers, which would protect from this? Or is it just because it would take so much amp power and so many subwoofer enclosures that it becomes impractical (i.e. too expensive)?

 

[svtb15]

Unless you have ever experienced it in a live application and not "In theory" you are truly missing an event.

I would think that virtuoso players such as Anthony Jackson and John Patitucci would differ with your opinion.

I by no means care to use processing in my rig and don't care to use Extreme rigs any longer..
I use a simple set up for all my gigging, especially gigs that i use only IEM. That is great because all i use is a Tube DI with my Westones and im done.

The Meyer rigs are the finest in the world and their processors are just a little more than a crossover, compression circuit.. If it were that simple everyone would be using it. There is also time alignment etc. as is the same with the Bagend gear.

BagEnd is great in Theater, Cinema, Church s etc where you can hear that time lined sound.
I think it is eons ahead and superior than some horn loaded antique type A7 cabs that spit the sound out at you in cones of sound that spike you..

Is 8 hz useful for bass guitar?
Probably not....well its way below your lowest fundamental note, but does not mean that 8hz is not there if it were able to be reproduced cleanly.. Theoretically speaking of course. But like i said it is an experience....

Years ago and even now a days some people don't think a tweeter has anyplace in a bass rig. They would say anything above 2K is useless. I disagree there.. I think the upper area is needed for clarity unless you are doing a blues gig.. But even then some top extension is good.

Now for me , i would not use and ELF for bass since the ELF is not what i need anymore.. But if you ever experienced it in your life in a playing situation, you would get it.
The Bagend gets some extreme low end extension from a single 12 ELF box too. Its just not my thing.

But in any event flat response to even 28Hz, let alone 8Hz, is of absolutely no benefit whatsoever where electric bass or pro-sound PA is concerned, so there's no point to having the ability to deliver it.

 

[Magman]

Isn't max power bit true for any cabinets response?

To counteract the rolloff below of a hypothetical ported cabinet below say 60hz I would have to add EQ - and if I have no headroom left on the amp its going to clip the amp....

I cant really speak for the XMAX of the Bag end driver as I don't know what it is. But I would hope that one of their design criteria is that the drivers have enough Xmax to operate at Max power as low as possible. A little extra is even better.

You can approximate the slope with some Parametrics, maybe even graphic.

They make some claims about the Integrator Helping keep the phase better and making it seem louder. I'll take that with a grain of Salt.

The one thing that one must understand about any Sealed cab is You take a sweep of the frequency response at maximum power with no EQ, the resulting 12dB per octave roll off slope represents the loudest that that speaker will get.

If the box is 3dB down at 50Hz and its Max out put at 50Hz is 120db, the max output @ 25Hz will be 108dB.

That means if you want Constant Flat response down to 25Hz, your total output will be limited to 108dB.

 

[spode master]

Isn't max power bit true for any cabinets response?

To counteract the rolloff below of a hypothetical ported cabinet below say 60hz I would have to add EQ - and if I have no headroom left on the amp its going to clip the amp....

Of course, some people think because the ELF circuit can give flat response to X Hz that it magically makes it able to do it at equal output to the linear response region of the box. And they seem to gloss over that in the bag end specs.

 

[spode master]

That's exactly what it does, the technical term being a Linkwitz Transform Circuit. It supplies a 12dB/octave boost to counter the 12dB/octave rolloff of a sealed speaker below the system resonant frequency. The downfall is that for each octave below fb that 12dB of boost requires 16 times the power and enough driver xmax to make use of it for equal output. But in any event flat response to even 28Hz, let alone 8Hz, is of absolutely no benefit whatsoever where electric bass or pro-sound PA is concerned, so there's no point to having the ability to deliver it.

Well the argument against? Other than a practicality issue. I've played live gigs with my sub rig and no PA reinforcement, and I think its great.

I don't think 20Hz is good in your kitchen since all of the dishes chatter. But I've had people audience members really enjoy it.

 

[Magman]

I'll let Bill speak for himself of course... I've seen this come up in threads as well and the sense I get is basically the hit you in the chest kick drum sound from the subs at a club, and possibly lower end of the bass gtr as well, is the 50-70hz region....not down at 30hz (let alone 8.....which is infra-sound)

Dance clubs maybe a bit different because techno etc does use a lot of lower end.

There are plenty of more esoteric approaches from bands/musicians but I guess the great majority of ensembles out there don't need an earthquake - thats my sense of what Bill is saying. I think he took a bunch of measurements from loads of live touring acts.

For every jazz-experimental-ambient band with a 9 string extended range bassist and synth player....there must be several hundred pop, indie, rock, metal etc acts. And those weirdo bands don't often end up on large national tours.

Could you explain a little more about why, as you say, "flat response to even 28Hz, let alone 8Hz, is of absolutely no benefit whatsoever where electric bass or pro-sound PA is concerned"...? I've seen this statement a number of times, but I can't remember seeing an explanation of why.

 

[TrevorOfDoom]

I cant really speak for the XMAX of the Bag end driver as I don't know what it is. But I would hope that one of their design criteria is that the drivers have enough Xmax to operate at Max power as low as possible. A little extra is even better.

You can approximate the slope with some Parametrics, maybe even graphic.

They make some claims about the Integrator Helping keep the phase better and making it seem louder. I'll take that with a grain of Salt.

The one thing that one must understand about any Sealed cab is You take a sweep of the frequency response at maximum power with no EQ, the resulting 12dB per octave roll off slope represents the loudest that that speaker will get.

If the box is 3dB down at 50Hz and its Max out put at 50Hz is 120db, the max output @ 25Hz will be 108dB.

That means if you want Constant Flat response down to 25Hz, your total output will be limited to 108dB.

just so you know... Bag End got started doing SR, and still do SR, so they still approach everything they do with the SR ideals of honesty and accuracy. as someone noted earlier, they don't advertise. that means no fliers or posters with rockstars, no brochures featuring whatever flavour-of-the-month bass player, none of it.
when i requested information on their 15" cabs, they sent me the same spec sheets they send FOH and SR guys. nothing but specs, numbers, and a couple of handy diagrams.
when Bag End says their product does something, i believe it.
now, whether you like the sound of BE is another matter entirely...

 

[spode master]

Oh yah I don't know if it was Tony Levin himself, but on one of his bands tour gear list, someone had a Servodrive Contra Bass.

 

[ChrisPbass]

I said

You quoted me in your sig?! I'm FAMOUS.

 

[Magman]

To tongue in cheek refer you to my other post..... you are probably one of those 'weirdo' bands

I've noticed in some circles a 5 string bass is still vaguely exotic.

Well the argument against? Other than a practicality issue. I've played live gigs with my sub rig and no PA reinforcement, and I think its great.

I don't think 20Hz is good in your kitchen since all of the dishes chatter. But I've had people audience members really enjoy it.

 

[staindbass]

i think my dual electrovoice evx 18" cabs would eat that for breakfast. i think it might be cheaper to make one than the elwarpo... bill said there is no benefit to having flat to 28 hz ect? thats like driving with a dirty windshield, trying to see. in my opinion, the sound coming from your rig should be better than the pa sound to give you inspiration and propell and push you to greatness. otherwise id stil be playing old tv speakers in cardboard boxes onstage. johnny a / staind

 

[TrevorOfDoom]

in my opinion, the sound coming from your rig should be better than the pa sound to give you inspiration and propell and push you to greatness. otherwise id stil be playing old tv speakers in cardboard boxes onstage. johnny a / staind

ahhh, how true it is!

in this day and age, with PA and SR being what it is, the bass rig is now almost exclusively for the enjoyment of the bassist. truthfully, only perhaps the first two rows of audience can hear your rig, and i doubt they actually care if you're using Eden or Ampeg, a 4x10 or a 2x15.
any chest thump that hits the audience comes entirely from the PA these days. so the question becomes:
which would you prefer to hear yourself from, while onstage? the Accugroove, or the Bag End?
however, i'd stress accuracy and clarity for the onstage rig, as we do have to hear ourselves. perhaps a 2x10? the Acme cabs are surprisingly well rounded and full spectrum. i should think you'd be able to hear yourself quite well, even on the G#.
just something to think about.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Could you explain a little more about why, as you say, "flat response to even 28Hz, let alone 8Hz, is of absolutely no benefit whatsoever where electric bass or pro-sound PA is concerned"...? I've seen this statement a number of times, but I can't remember seeing an explanation of why.

Because there's not enough sonic information down there to require flat response. That's not a personal opinion, it's backed up by hundreds of RTAs I've taken of national and international acts playing in a major venue through million dollar systems with no limitations. Even though these systems are capable of going flat to at least 25Hz the only material I've ever measured that low is from truck traffic on the highway a half mile away.

 

[svtb15]

+1

i think my dual electrovoice evx 18" cabs would eat that for breakfast. i think it might be cheaper to make one than the elwarpo... bill said there is no benefit to having flat to 28 hz ect? thats like driving with a dirty windshield, trying to see. in my opinion, the sound coming from your rig should be better than the pa sound to give you inspiration and propell and push you to greatness. otherwise id stil be playing old tv speakers in cardboard boxes onstage. johnny a / staind