Accugroove 21" vs Bag End 18"

[spode master]

Not true, Maybe in the day of Vinyl records. Because if you put too much Lows into the master you would need much larger grooves which would cut down on the amount of time that you could get on a side.
That is where mastering was an Art Form for vinyl.. Well stil is but really back then..
With today technology of Digital formats you don't have to worry about that as much,, You are still limited to time on a CD since mastering will not allow over 70 minutes or so. Since the CD manufacturer will not guarantee their medium of non defect over that time limit.. Even though the CD may say 80 minutes or so.
Its funny because my FOH guy and I were taling about this just the other day.. We were talking anout currnet day and the olden days of vinyl.. My FOH guy has 4 grammys for engineering and mixing. masteing so i will take his word as gold..

I didn't mean to say having live extension that low is not important for recorded music systems.

But over on Pro Sound Web I started a thread trying to find a list of tracks with significant meaningful bass content bellow 40Hz.

I was suprised at how little modern recordings actually have content down there.

I am familiar with the reasons for the RIAA curves on vinal

 

[Magman]

Well thats what I was wondering... that engineers are so used to running highpasses on the subs, pulling out everything below 50 or so on the kick and bass, and bassists using miced rigs with lots of rolloff....the end result is a sound without much deep low end - which may be all that is required.

Do they not have significant sub 40 because the system will not reproduce the sub 40? Just because it was not reproduced does not mean it was not at the source.
Some guys like to roll that low off simply to tighten up the subs some... conserve power some to get more headroom....and get rid of a mess down low at times.
But i think the future and even currently with Digital amps with processing like the Meyer rigs and Fiber Optic Snakes and Distro, you will be seeing more and more of concert systems that can and will do INFRA very well and create a new listener experience.. Even large concert halls are starting to not sound like a giant fish tank. They are making them sound pretty good..

 

[svtb15]

Oh I hear what you are saying..
But I dont know if i would go with any pop records though.. geeez the way they compress and limit the stuff these days there is no dynaic range left at all..
It looks like a block if you look at the wave form in soundforge.. not that it has anything to do with INFRA.. but maybe it does...
I think with the advent of Blueray discs you are going to see extention into INFRA on alot of movies and theater and even Live concerts.. Especially in the future..
I think the bagend and its system does a good job for this day and age..
Geez i remember when the ALTEC A7 was the state of the art... they even used them at Woodstock with old crown dc300s.. it must have sounded terrible to today's standards..

I didn't mean to say having live extension that low is not important for recorded music systems.

But over on Pro Sound Web I started a thread trying to find a list of tracks with significant meaningful bass content bellow 40Hz.

I was suprised at how little modern recordings actually have content down there.

I am familiar with the reasons for the RIAA curves on vinal

 

[Magman]

What about classical music with organs?

There are some huge organs out there, with quite a historical pedigree.... I believe they can hit very low. Just to put things in a historical context.

Modern recordings seems to be over compressed at the mastering stage on the whole, and not going for dynamics and depth.

Maybe DVD film soundtracks (fx etc) would have more of that material.

I didn't mean to say having live extension that low is not important for recorded music systems.

But over on Pro Sound Web I started a thread trying to find a list of tracks with significant meaningful bass content bellow 40Hz.

I was suprised at how little modern recordings actually have content down there.

I am familiar with the reasons for the RIAA curves on vinal

 

[svtb15]

Exactly,,

Well I love a good Steely Dan record or Donald Fagans Nightfly.. But there are allot of lows rolled off on that record and it still sounds great.. One of the finest recording ever in my opinion..

Many years ago I worked with the engineer roger nichols that did that stuff .
Great engineer,I think he won a few grammys too.. but I dont like what he does for rock stuff. in my opinion.

I personally like to feel my pants move from air movement

Well thats what I was wondering... that engineers are so used to running highpasses on the subs, pulling out everything below 50 or so on the kick and bass, and bassists using miced rigs with lots of rolloff....the end result is a sound without much deep low end - which may be all that is required.

 

[spode master]

What about classical music with organs?

There are some huge organs out there, with quite a historical pedigree.... I believe they can hit very low. Just to put things in a historical context.

Modern recordings seems to be over compressed at the mastering stage on the whole, and not going for dynamics and depth.

Maybe DVD film soundtracks (fx etc) would have more of that material.

Oh there are plenty out there. I haven't heard any good recordings of pipe organs but I believe there are a few good ones.

Lil' Johns Get Low has some good 30Hz
There's a Christian Agulera/Little Kim track that is good.

There are some good car subwoofer stress tests. One track that comes to mind is called Bass I love you. It has a 6Hz tone I was playing it through 4 lab 12's in a sealed box with almost 3kW behind them. When that 6Hz tone hit you could feel the pulse it made the loft in the warehouse jerk. Sub bass is cool.

I agree with Bill F. that most of what you get out of your bass is 2nd harmonic on the lowest of notes.

But you can EQ that back in.

The other drawback to Sub bass is if you are playing with a really loud band it will be less noticed as your hearing is much more sensitive to the mid ranges, and having enough sub bass headroom to be heard as equally loud becomes impractical, and possibly hazardous to buildings.

 

[svtb15]

What about classical music with organs?

There are some huge organs out there, with quite a historical pedigree.... I believe they can hit very low. Just to put things in a historical context.

Modern recordings seems to be over compressed at the mastering stage on the whole, and not going for dynamics and depth.

Maybe DVD film soundtracks (fx etc) would have more of that material.

The pipe organ at Disney Concert Hall will do 16Hz
Invalid Link Removed
That will shake the fat on your body for sure.



.

 

[Magman]

This issue relates to target output device for mixing and mastering recordings... theres generally an assumption that the typical music consumer will not have a hi-fi capable of pant flapping and thus certain mix decisions are made to cater to essentially inferior sound systems.

Its even worse nowadays with mp3's, earbud heaphones, myspace and computer speakers. I don;t know anyone younger than 30 who bothers to buy a decent hi-fi system. Not to mention no one buys CD's anymore anyway ;-)

I'm always struck whenever I listen to a classical music recording just how dynamic these performances are.... you turn it up to hear the quiet parts and when the loud bits come in....wow..... its powerful and loud. Modern rock/pop music has a LOT to learn from that, to this day.

Exactly,,

Well I love a good Steely Dan record or Donald Fagans Nightfly.. But there are allot of lows rolled off on that record and it sounds great.. One of the finest recording ever in my opinion..

I worked with the engineer roger nichols that did that stuff many years ago.
Great engineer,I think he won a few grammys too.. but I dont like what he does for rock stuff. in my opinion.
I personally like to feel my pants move from air movement

 

[svtb15]

This issue relates to target output device for mixing and mastering recordings... theres generally an assumption that the typical music consumer will not have a hi-fi capable of pant flapping and thus certain mix decisions are made to cater to essentially inferior sound systems.

Its even worse nowadays with mp3's, earbud heaphones, myspace and computer speakers. I don;t know anyone younger than 30 who bothers to buy a decent hi-fi system. Not to mention no one buys CD's anymore anyway ;-)

I'm always struck whenever I listen to a classical music recording just how dynamic these performances are.... you turn it up to hear the quiet parts and when the loud bits come in....wow..... its powerful and loud. Modern rock/pop music has a LOT to learn from that, to this day.

Oh I agree...

I still like to mix on Auratones... low volume too...

Its been fun here today.. but i have to run to a gig now..

 

[Magman]

Well I just went downstairs and ran some sine tones through my backup rig...... carvin B1500, a 118sub, 115sub (tuned to about 40hz) and a small sealed carvin monitor as a top.

Will definitely deliver 20hz, but not very loud. At that point though, the sound really is more of a pressure than anything else...at 25hz a more solid note forms.

Port chuffing from the 15sub and other distortion elements are very audible with the 30 hz tone at higher levels, plus stuff vibrating in the house. Going outside I noticed door knob to the house is vibrating. Its not that loud though.....if I had run pink noise through it would have been hands over ears time back down in the basement.

Should have taken the monitor out of the signal chain as I smelled driver glue melting after a bit. Doh.

Maybe I'll stick some 30 or 40 hz sine tones in my sampler pedal and use them on some gigs and see how they work in some atmospheric sections, and maybe sort out an 18 cab thats relatively efficient at the 30-40 region (I have a spare cab). Plenty of room for in the field experimentation I think.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

it doesn't matter how awesome your rig sounds, if the FOH guy can't get the whole band under control you'll sound like shite everytime.

the question here is: just because you can, does that mean you should? more often than not, no, you shouldn't.

+1000
This coming from both the performing and soundguy end of things...

 

[VicDamone]

Why is it when this subject comes up the majority of respondents have never even played with a true subwoofer system. Which means regardless of what you're using you've never heard the full bandwidth potential of your instrument. Subwoofers are not extension cabinets, there independent systems. And no, those really nice Acme cabinets don't even come close.

Subwoofer systems get pricey real quick especially if your not already using a stereo power amp and separate preamp. Look for a Powered Subwoofer (the speaker, pre, amp, and crossover all in one box). AccuGroove is fine well made gear and I trust their specs. Those cabinets are looking for 1200 or 1500 watt peaks plus a crossover and an attenuator/preamp.

My Bag End S18E-D only needs 400 watts but then there's the ELFm processor. Either way it gets costly and it's one or two more things to hump.

Original poster, your in a loud band with a PA? I'd suggest an Avalon U5 or comparable DI to the board, board to a ServoDrive Contra Bass cabinet (I think they only need dedicated 500 watts).

 

[JimmyM]

OK, so we have discovered, thanks to this thread, that some need the brown note and some don't. I'm one who doesn't, but after getting a 410HLF cab on a couple recent fly dates, I can certainly see the attraction.

 

[alexclaber]

Subwoofers are not extension cabinets, there independent systems. And no, those really nice Acme cabinets don't even come close.

Those really nice Acme cabinets do meet their specs and -6dB @ 31Hz is far better than any other bass guitar cab on the market. That may not compare to hi-fi or cinema subs but it compares favourably with many FOH subwoofers.

AccuGroove is fine well made gear and I trust their specs.

It might be fine well made gear but you would be crazy to trust their specs. As has already been stated in this and numerous other threads the Whappo Grande's specs are about an octave out from reality.

Alex

 

[VicDamone]

Those really nice Acme cabinets do meet their specs and -6dB @ 31Hz is far better than any other bass guitar cab on the market. That may not compare to hi-fi or cinema subs but it compares favourably with many FOH subwoofers.

In spite of their power requirements, I agree, Acme cabinets do a very good job but a subwoofer system has the ability to attenuate gain +dB below 50Hz.



It might be fine well made gear but you would be crazy to trust their specs. As has already been stated in this and numerous other threads the Whappo Grande's specs are about an octave out from reality.
Alex

Well there's no question about my mental health, I'm a goner, but an octave out? Compared to what? How big of a room and treated with what, what amplifier, what measuring equipment and mic? There are simply to many variables. Since a manufactures specs are only meant to be a rough guide I'm only concerned with a products resistance and sensitivity figures. Voicing and bandwidth are at my discretion. Personally, I trust the folks in the South Bay at AccuGroove.

I'm not trying to push anything. I'm simply pointing out to the original poster that many opinions given in this thread are by folks who have mistaken an extension cabinet for a subwoofer system and others who have never used a sub on a regular basis. There's a lot going on below 40Hz and at -6dB @ 30Hz your not hearing/feeling all of it, that's all.

 

[spode master]

If you take a look at the graphs that I posted (back on the second page) on the Accugroove wappo, Beyma 21" driver I posted some graphs, of a cabinet the same size of the wappo granded made a guess at the porting.

The Wappo Grande is going to be -20dB at 19Hz If your lucky it'll be -8dB at 30Hz.

there are also some graphs of the Wappo 21 Speaker in a more optimal Box. It would need to be 14cu'. The Wappo is almost 6cu'.

I can get better bass response down in the sub region with 4 lab 12's in a 12cu' cab.

DON'T trust any companies claims that don't conform to AES standard. They tend to stretch the numbers rediculously!

 

[VicDamone]

If you take a look at the graphs that I posted (back on the second page) on the Accugroove wappo, Beyma 21" driver I posted some graphs, of a cabinet the same size of the wappo granded made a guess at the porting.

The Wappo Grande is going to be -20dB at 19Hz If your lucky it'll be -8dB at 30Hz.

there are also some graphs of the Wappo 21 Speaker in a more optimal Box. It would need to be 14cu'. The Wappo is almost 6cu'.

I can get better bass response down in the sub region with 4 lab 12's in a 12cu' cab.

DON'T trust any companies claims that don't conform to AES standard. They tend to stretch the numbers rediculously!

So let me get this straight. You did a graph or measurement of an approximation of a product and another of an all together different enclosure and made a guess at their porting? From this your accusing AccuGroove of what?

The AES, is that the same organization that claims its possible to get 3000 continues watts from a 12 volt car battery.

In the end if someone likes to sound of the Whappo the Dickens or the cabinets that you designed, then isn't that all that matters.

 

[alexclaber]

Well there's no question about my mental health, I'm a goner, but an octave out? Compared to what? How big of a room and treated with what, what amplifier, what measuring equipment and mic? There are simply to many variables. Since a manufactures specs are only meant to be a rough guide I'm only concerned with a products resistance and sensitivity figures. Voicing and bandwidth are at my discretion. Personally, I trust the folks in the South Bay at AccuGroove.

Your comments suggest you don't actually understand what you're talking about. Any measurements of cabs should be taken at 2.83V @ 1m for an 8 ohm cab or 2V @ 1m for a 4 ohm cab, outdoors in half space (i.e. cab on the ground). Distance and voltage can be increased proportionally to give an indication of power compression characteristics. The amp and mic should both be calibrated.

The only way AccuGroove could have achieved these specs through measurement is with the cab with in a small underground room to get massive cabin gain (as happens with car subwoofers) which would be a very dishonest approach. The more likely situation is they plucked the numbers out of thin air.

There is no magic in speaker design - you cannot get a quart in a pint pot yet that is exactly what AccuGroove have claimed to do.

Alex

 

[bassman10096]

have played Bagend with the ELF... It is the ****! You need to have the processor.
Specs say it does 8 hz... I beleive it.. It is deeper than deep... But **** the specs..
yeah strings on the bass don't do 8 Hz but other aspects do.. thumb sounds, plucking thumping will... and those things do add to low freq energy that really makes it very up close and real...

Not being a competent techie, I'm reluctant to wade into this, but what the hell...

A couple observations - first - I've played a BE S18E-D with the ELF integrator for a couple of years (paired usually with a Dr Bass 2460 212). When I first got the BE, I had questions and talked to the tech support guy at Bag End. At his recommendation, we did a minor, reversable mod to the integrator to cut off frequencies below 25hz. Believe me, the sound still sounds deeper than deep, but it doesn't include the incredibly faithful reproduction of sub 25 hz string noise, etc that ELF/INFRA really can deliver. Big improvement. Now, I have the most transparent ultra lows I've ever heard - without the nonmusical stuff (which was more distracting than up close and personal). Not everyone's cup of tea, but works for me.

The only other points I'd make are practical - the sealed 118 ELF cab is the same profile as the smaller BE non-ELF 118, only 69 lbs, making it lighter by 4-5 lb than the SWR 118, 10 lb than the big BE 118 cab and more compact and easier to handle than a lot of 115s. If there's a single reason I'm still using the ELF, it's because I can't get a comparable sound from anything else that's as easy to carry. Finally - on cost - the comparisons I've heard here must be based on paying new unit prices. I picked up my BE equipment (cab and integrator) mint, for under $500. That's not an unattainable price, either. So - I figured I'd try it for about the cost of a better than avg 115 cab. Anyway, it worked for me.

 

[allexcosta]

To the OP.
A SVT4PRO won't do it. Not even close.