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Acme Users Unite!!!
- Thread starter jokerjkny
- Start date
ster said:
How would you say the B-1 would compare to an SWR Goliath II Jr. (2x10) both for volume and sound quality?
Richard Lindsey said:
Enough to efficiently drive the cabinet. What I understand about Acme cabinets is that they have a great sound but are very inefficient. Unless you have enough wattage to drive the cabinets, you will not realize their true sound.
Is this correct?
LeonD
LeonD said:
As an Acme owner, I would say no, this is definitely not correct. First, efficiency is not a function of amplifer power, but of the relation betweem the signal going into a cab and its acoustic output. A 1000 W amp would not be able to power a cab more efficiently, in that sense, than a 200 W amp when used within their rated limits--it would just be able to drive it *louder*.
Second, I think you may have a misconception about these (and other) speakers. It's not the case that they don't work right without a certain level of power. Heck, they'll work fine with 1 W--that's what sensitivity tests are done with. The cab will sound fine with your amp--it just won't get that loud. You will definitely hear the true sound--it just won't be a loud true sound.
Third, you can't really talk about "enough" power unless you also talk about the application. What kind of playing situation(s) are you envisioning? Bedroom practice? Cabaret gigs? Rock club gigs? With PA help or not? And what kind of music? Jazz, rock, blues, metal? How loud do you want to be?
Fourth, you have to be realistic about what you can expect to get out of a 1-10--ANY 1-10. You can't just up the power indefinitely and expect to get more effective volume. There will come a point where the cab just won't give you any more. You can put 1200 W into a B-1, and you still won't be able to hang with a metal band.
If you're attached to your amp, you might want a B-2 rather than a B-1; you'll get a bit more volume with the same power setting on your amp.
LeonD said:
i use a single B-1 for most of my basement rehearsing. its not that loud, but plenty loud for most small lounge / dinner party gigs i've done. tone is full and very satisfying. all other 1x10's make me feel like i'm using a really thick guitar string. the B-1 feels like i'm playing bass.
but against a SWR 2x10? the SWR will deliver WAAAY more volume than the little B-1. also, a moderately loud drummer will easily outshine it. like its been mentioned, you might want to look into the B-2. but even there, the SWR will be perceptibly louder, despite sounding shallower and thinner compared to the full fatness of the B-2.
as for feeding, i use my iAMP-800, and it pushes out 1000 watts @ 2 ohms. both of my B-1's are 4 ohms. funny, but i tried my pair of B-1's with an iAMP-500, and found the more wattage, the much tighter and punchier the sound. this rig is plenty loud for a moderate drummer, most acoustic gigs, and plenty for my praise / worship gigs on sundays.
also for the gents that are planning on purchasing an Acme,
PLEASE, GIVE IT TIME TO BREAK IN.
only after then, will you really hear what the Acme can do.
- Apr 3, 2003
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- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
jokerjkny said:
This is what I had heard in the past and the point of my first posting. Richard seems to disagree based on his post above yours.
The primary reason I'm considering moving away from my Goliath Jr. is size; I'd like something easier to carry. And I'd think moving two B-1's would be easier than one Goliath Jr.
My three gigs at this time are solo bass, a duet with a guitar, and a worship band. I think the B-1 would be enough by itself for the first two. And on the worship gig, I go through the house so I'd be using the B-1 as a stage monitor.
The Goliath Jr. is getting on in age and I'm not liking the cab as much as I used to (especially with my new bass; my old primary bass was a Stingray with flats, my new primary bass is an MTD 635). So either I need to learn how the eq the Goliath Jr. for the new bass or look to see what else is out there.
LeonD
- Apr 3, 2003
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- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
FWIW, I have also found that my Low B-2 does, indeed, sound different (even at the same volume) when driven with an amp that has more headroom (power).
This is true.
The first amp I used to drive my two B2s was a GK 2000RB at 1000 watts. Now they're splitting 1600 watts from a Stewart 1.6 and the "room rumble" is much more pronounced, yet controllable... ya know?
The first amp I used to drive my two B2s was a GK 2000RB at 1000 watts. Now they're splitting 1600 watts from a Stewart 1.6 and the "room rumble" is much more pronounced, yet controllable... ya know?
LeonD said:
It's not really disagreement, I don't think; more a matter of emphasis.
I completely believe joker's experience. My take, though, is that what's happening is not that the speakers are performing better, but that the amp is. More amp power, within reasonable limits (i.e., the physical constraints imposed by speaker power handling and excursion limits), is most *always* better with *any* speaker. The amp doesn't work as hard, more power is available to reproduce transients, a smaller percentage of the amp's power is needed to attain the desired volume, the rig sounds better. Simple as that. Nothing unique to Acme about it.
What I'm cautioning against is the idea that speakers need some level of power to work "right". They don't, in any practical sense. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way a B-1 works or sounds with a 100 W or 200 W amp *if you don't mind playing quietly*. Indeed, it will sound better with a bigger/better amp and played louder (within reason), but so, within its limits, will almost any other decent cab in the world. Again, nothing unique to Acme.
There is something else worth remembering in regard to loudness, namely that your ear hears differently at different levels. At low levels, you won't hear the highest and lowest frequencies as well as the mids; as volume goes up, this goes away. (That, of course, is the reason for the "loudness" control on stereos.) This doesn't mean that the speaker is necessarily working differently or worse; it just means that it's, well, quieter.
Something else to remember about Acmes: I've seen some folks get the idea that it's practically impossible to send them too much power. But ask Andy Lewis, the maker, and he'll tell you different. He's been known to grumble about users that go way way over his suggested maximums and then get surprised when the cab fries.
tombowlus said:
Again, I think that's your *amp* sounding different.
Amp headroom makes the amp sound better--that's its raison d'etre for bass rig purposes. If you're feeding your cabs the exact same signal with two amps, why would they behave differently with one amp than the other? And if they're not the same signal, then of course they would sound different.
LeonD said:
I think a B-1 ought to be fine for the first two. For the third, for any band louder than a jazz guitar trio, I'd be more comfortable with either a B-2 or two B-1s, even with PA support, unless you plan to park the B-1 about 2 ft from your head.
- Apr 3, 2003
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- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
Richard Lindsey said:
That is a very good point to make! While I am someone who will probably go way over the suggested maximums, I do so knowing that I need to proceed with caution. At the first sign of any speaker distress, I quickly back down - and let me tell you that I don't normally ever get to where I hear such distress. Keep an eye and an ear on the gain, and use a reasonable amount of prudence.
Now, the flip side to this argument is that you can also blow a speaker using an amp rated at lower than its suggested maximum power handling, if you are driving the amp into clipping, and/or sending a horribly distorted signal into it.
Wouldn't the behavior of the drivers within the cab differ based on certain performance aspects that change from amp to amp... such as the damping factor?
Wouldn't that account for some differences (perceived "tightness" or "control") even at "similar" volume levels?
Wouldn't that account for some differences (perceived "tightness" or "control") even at "similar" volume levels?
tombowlus said:
Right. Going over the max is rarely an issue if you approach it sensibly and carefully, as you do.
Re the low power thing, if you've followed the various threads here, you know that clipping/distortion per se isn't the problem. You can clip a signal to death and it won't be a problem if it remains within the speaker's capacity to handle. It's really about overpowering (because clipping can result in the amp delivering more than its rated maximum) and overexcursion. But you're absolutely right, there are definitely situations where a 300 W amp, say, can blow a 400 W cab. In LeonD's case, he very likely could blow two B-1s with a 350 W amp if he really pushed it hard.
Richard nailed it. I myself am guilty of mentioning that the Acmes "seem to open up" when they are driven with the right amount of power... whereas the correct thing to say would probably have been that "an amp with adequate headroom really shines with the Acmes". This is a great example of why precise descriptions are important.
Like a few others here, I've found that 750 watts (SS) is just about perfect for each B2 cabinet... which means that there is enough headroom available.
Like a few others here, I've found that 750 watts (SS) is just about perfect for each B2 cabinet... which means that there is enough headroom available.
LeonD said:
LD,
i think the B-1's would shine in your situation.
just keep in mind, much of the tone shaping is now in the hands of your other pieces of gear. the acmes might seem a tad tame and neutral to the ear, but again, learning to use that neutrality to your benefit is where these cabs kick major butt.
So here's the idea, Lakland 55-01--->Sansamp RBI-loop->Me-50B--->
RMX1850HD---> LowB4.
How does this soind for a one rig does all for a bassist in need of a plethora of low end,and tone for all kinds of music? Enough Power to make the Acme's shine, and a good DI to handle the PA...right?
RMX1850HD---> LowB4.
How does this soind for a one rig does all for a bassist in need of a plethora of low end,and tone for all kinds of music? Enough Power to make the Acme's shine, and a good DI to handle the PA...right?
i think that's a fine rig.
but be warned that it wont sound as cutting as whatever rig you were using before. again, a parametric does wonders with an Acme.
but be warned that it wont sound as cutting as whatever rig you were using before. again, a parametric does wonders with an Acme.
Fretless5verfan said:
Yeah you should be set pretty well with these. I run a similar setup:
G&L L2500 ----> BBE Bmax ---> QSC RMX 1850HD -----> Low B4
and let me tell you.. it kicks a lot of a$$. The G&L sounds phenomenal through the Acme, and the BMax's para-mid control lets me dial in plenty of mids. The setup is capable of being totally obnoxious, with low end that feels like it's gonna move the house off its foundation, mids that can be set anywhere between scooped and chainsaw-like, and sweet, natural highs with no nasty tweeter click (thanks to the Acme's Audax tweeter).
Fretless5verfan said:
You ought to be a happy camper with that. To pick up on joker's suggestion, you might want to add a good parametric EQ to the mix down the road, just for added flexibility. IIRC, the SansAmp's EQ is not really surgically precise.
But your basic sound should he happening, and you will have the booty.
