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Acoustic Room Treatments 101

Centimeter wide routs?
Look how GIK does it. By slotting out the side of the panels they take an effective surface area of 8sf and add another 5.5sf. That's not an insignificant addition to absorptive, non-reflective surfaces per panel. Use a standoff and you add another 8sf as you're exposing the back face of the panel to reflections off the wall as well. For maximum absorption performance you could skin panels in burlap without the use of an external frame but that has some pretty significant aesthetic drawbacks so we take the performance hit. Further, by constructing this way it's possible that some scattering is introduced in the higher frequencies. Not quite diffusion and the depths are so shallow that the scattering will only occur way up top, but still a potential ancillary benefit.

If you can improve a DIY product, which is something entirely within the control of the person building the product, then why not look at what professional-grade commercially available products are doing and emulate the things they've done which likely came with lots of R&D by people much smarter about product design than a DIY'er? Why settle for "good enough" when a little bit of work can yield something better? I'll never understand that mentality.
 
Why settle for "good enough" when a little bit of work can yield something better? I'll never understand that mentality.
It's a mentality that actually gets more accomplished. Simpler cheaper construction allows a DIY'er to make more panels and more likely to jump into making them.

No need to start home mechanics on a Ferrari. Better to learn on an old Ford or VW.

People on the internet seem drawn towards over complicating things and insisting to hobbyists and DIY'ers a level of perfection that simply isn't necessary. That's also a "Mentality." And it likely leads to much less square footage of absorption being built, if we are comparing numbers! :)

All for an arguably negligible improvement.

Knock together one more panel — or five more — with the time you save.
 
It's a mentality that actually gets more accomplished. Simpler cheaper construction allows a DIY'er to make more panels and more likely to jump into making them.
Simpler construction also yields a lesser quality product that might make the DIY'er less satisfied with their work and less likely to continue using the product.

No need to start home mechanics on a Ferrari. Better to learn on an old Ford or VW.
Apples and oranges.

People on the internet seem drawn towards over complicating things and insisting to hobbyists and DIY'ers a level of perfection that simply isn't necessary.
More complicated? Yes. Overcomplicated? Hardly. Grab a router, make two passes on each cut piece of lumber prior to gluing up the frame. Done. If that's too much of a task then DIY'ing isn't for you and purchasing a commercial product would already be a better use of your time.

All for an arguably negligible improvement.
According to you. Maybe you know exactly what you're talking about, but your opinion doesn't come with the clout of folks like Ethan Winer, Glenn Kuras and Rod Gervais all of whom are widely regarded as experts in the field and have all backed this approach in multiple forms. If they don't consider it negligible then neither should anyone less educated on the subject than them, which constitutes basically all of us.

Knock together one more panel — or five more — with the time you save.
How long do you think two passes per board with a router takes? Maybe over the course of doing ten panels you might have gotten one more done. Five? If you can build five more panels by not routing the sides of a few boards then once again I suspect DIY was not the route for you to take and purchasing commercially available products would have been better.
 
Simpler construction also yields a lesser quality product that might make the DIY'er less satisfied with their work and less likely to continue using the product.


Apples and oranges.


More complicated? Yes. Overcomplicated? Hardly. Grab a router, make two passes on each cut piece of lumber prior to gluing up the frame. Done. If that's too much of a task then DIY'ing isn't for you and purchasing a commercial product would already be a better use of your time.


According to you. Maybe you know exactly what you're talking about, but your opinion doesn't come with the clout of folks like Ethan Winer, Glenn Kuras and Rod Gervais all of whom are widely regarded as experts in the field and have all backed this approach in multiple forms. If they don't consider it negligible then neither should anyone less educated on the subject than them, which constitutes basically all of us.


How long do you think two passes per board with a router takes? Maybe over the course of doing ten panels you might have gotten one more done. Five? If you can build five more panels by not routing the sides of a few boards then once again I suspect DIY was not the route for you to take and purchasing commercially available products would have been better.
Do you make these panels?
 
For my studio build out I went with a commercial product because I was so burned out after a three year build cycle. I easily could have if I had decided to go the DIY route. What does that have to do with anything relating to the OP's questions?
You just seem mighty certain and dismissive for someone who's not made any.

Armchair expertise can be quite sure of itself.

My experience tells me that simpler construction is more likely to result in success for the OP and anyone else on TB constructing sound treatment.

There is a lot of hype out there among commercial products. I think this may be impacting your sense of what works and what is necessary.

I've been at this for 14 years, and have posted my results both visual and audio.

Just knock together a frame with 2'x4' inside dimensions and staple gun some
Fabric that you can blow through ifnheld to your mouth (acoustically transparent). Done. Ten minutes if you want to speed run it.

Heck if we want things open on the side, just use stock that's smaller than 2" as I did… the 2" thick panels will pooch out. Some of mine are like that! Lol.

The sound waves have no idea whether your panels are fancy or if the look good. I'd compliment the hell out of any DIY panels that had cool extra routing etc. But it's just not necessary.
 
You just seem mighty certain and dismissive for someone who's not made any.
I suggested it based on how qualified pros are building their products. I've not insisted or stated that it's mandatory for success. All I've said is that looking at how the experts do it is likely a good practice. I'm also an experienced builder and know that this is a simple task if you're already capable of building a DIY panel. Stop reading more into this than there is.

Armchair expertise can be quite sure of itself.
Which is why I've left it to the experts. They know more than you or I and I'm just suggesting that copying their more learned approach is probably a good idea.
 
Yes, the experts I referenced are more learned than anyone posting in this thread. I'm not sure what's questionable about that.

Definition of LEARNED
Haha well I guess my doctorate doesn't really make me very "learned" nor does my early admission to MIT undergrad engineering, or being raised from birth basically inside a two million volume research library.

People who manufacture panels make slightly better panels than my DIY jobs I guess but that that doesn't seem to be the topic here.

Not that "learnedness" makes a difference when experience researching, building, installing, and using DIY acoustic panels is the relevant thing here. Nobody needs to be "learned" to do that. Which is my whole point.

Heck, I'm just trying to educate people on how to get into this, and the simplest approach has the best chance of succes!

My doctorate is in education, and in particular education as it relates to the DIY world of homeschooling. This is what my recent dissertation was on. Like, you can't really get much more qualified than that to discuss DIY on TB

Smart people don't get into personal debates with others online who insult their intellect, so I'm definitely not smart.:banghead: But I'm learned! :woot:

Mostly I'm just asking that you speak for yourself, my friend.

And also, which experts did you reference I'm sorry if I missed that.
 
If that's too much of a task then DIY'ing isn't for you and purchasing a commercial product would already be a better use of your time.


According to you. Maybe you know exactly what you're talking about, but your opinion doesn't come with the clout of folks like Ethan Winer, Glenn Kuras and Rod Gervais all of whom are widely regarded as experts in the field and have all backed this approach in multiple forms. If they don't consider it negligible then neither should anyone less educated on the subject than them, which constitutes basically all of us.


How long do you think two passes per board with a router takes? Maybe over the course of doing ten panels you might have gotten one more done. Five? If you can build five more panels by not routing the sides of a few boards then once again I suspect DIY was not the route for you to take and purchasing commercially available products would have been better.
Went back and reread. I missed your list earlier. Yes— These were the guys I was reading 14 years ago when I began building panels.

The manufacturers of panels are likely to include some hype; routed edges is very much a skippable step for the DIY'er.

It's just ironic to be continually personally insulted by someone who hasn't even built panels!

"Mentality" and "Learnedness" good grief.

O ye gods, Why are acoustic treatment threads seemingly always like this??
 
From EthanWiner.com - the technical standard for measurement actually intentionally ignores the contribution of the sides of panels. That's what the pros are doing. Personally, again, I suggest to not do what the pros are doing if you are a DIY'er and consider instead doing what DIY'ers do!
ethan winer said:


ASTM
, a US organization that establishes standards and practices used by acousticians and testing labs. By requiring its members to follow the same rules, materials tested to ASTM standards in different facilities can be compared with confidence. However, a flaw in the test method does not take into account the edges of the material. Top

Although the edges are exposed when the material is tested, the calculation for absorption coefficient considers only the size of the front surface, and ignores the edges completely. For a panel that is two by four feet and four inches thick, the edges add 50 percent to the absorbing surface during testing, yet they are ignored in the coefficient calculation. This is further complicated because there is no standard sample size. Since a small sample has proportionally more edge than a larger one, a sample that's 8 by 8 feet will measure better than one that's 10 by 12 feet, even if they're the same thickness and made of the exact same material.

In practice, multiple panels are placed adjacent to each other during testing, to minimize the contribution of the edges. So when 2 by 4 foot panels are tested, typically eight of them are arranged into a larger square. But even when placed to form a single surface area of 8 by 8 feet, four-inch thick edges still inflate the measurements by more than 16 percent. Top

foam_panel.gif

This panel is 2 by 4 feet and 4 inches thick. During testing the four edges add 50 percent to the total surface area, yet they're excluded from the absorption calculations. And when many panels are mounted adjacent on a wall, the edges are not absorbing even though they contributed to the published specs.
Further, most acoustic panels are meant to be installed adjacent on the wall in a cluster. In this case the edges are not available to absorb even though they were when the material was tested. When an entire wall is covered with four-inch thick panels none of the edges are exposed, so the real absorption is only 2/3 what the published numbers indicate - and those numbers were already inflated!

I don't think that router bits would cut very nicely into the cheap thin pine stock I use to build on a budget, but I have not personally tried it.
 
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My conversation with Ethan Weiner on using my bookshelves as sort of dodgy helmholtz resonators after I finished my first panels and installed them. Alternating Placement of Bookshelves as Diffusors

My thread on how to build a mix position cloud with basically no tools and almost no money: how i built my mix position cloud
Also a picture of baby Standalone/Obi-Wan zenabI

Here's my studio in a transitional year. Obi's studio, ten years after...

Panels are still there and in use now.... pardon the gu*tars. This was the only other image I had on TB.
ED6EA31E-2C0F-43D2-845D-D42E27A1F741.jpeg
 
From EthanWiner.com - the technical standard for measurement actually intentionally ignores the contribution of the sides of panels.
Curious that he states that in an academic sense when his commercial product and his stated opinion elsewhere online and in an article on TapeOp or possibly Sound on Sound from a couple years ago points to the opposite. His expanded explanation describes clustering of panels which does not match, or at least is unlikely to match, what the OP is proposing. His commercial installation guides mirror this by suggesting continuous arrays/banks of traps with no gap, so clearly the edge is of some concern to him or he wouldn't bother.

I don't think that router bits would cut very nicely into the cheap thin pine stock I use to build on a budget, but I have not personally tried it.
This will be dependent on the sharpness and type of the bit used and the type of material you're cutting into. Typical framing grade lumber, even the nominal 1" variety, would do well provided the right bit was used and it wasn't completely dull. Use an old bit, the wrong type of bit, flimsy wood, etc. and it could definitely get messy in a hurry.

That was an apostrophe.
I don't follow.
 
This is a much more important read than the debate between Silky and me! :)
I'd hardly call this a debate. We have a difference of opinion, although in practice I'm guessing we actually don't as is the nature of online conversations like this, and neither of us has a dog in the fight. For the record; none of this on my end is intended to come across aggressively or ill-tempered.
 
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