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Double Bass Active PA with the DPA 4099b

Don Sibley

Don Sibley

Jun 27, 2005
684
34
Fort Worth, TX
#1
I spent the last few days evaluating the Yamaha DXR12, QSC K10 and the Bose L1 Compact. Signal chain: 1968 Pollmann - DPA 4099b - ART Pro Channel II - PA. I recorded all tracks with the Zoom Q3.

I would rank the speakers in the following order (YMMV):

1. Bose - much easier to dial in tone and control feedback than the other two due to a flatter frequency response, tight-controlled bass, and a high frequency roll off. It may not come across in the recordings but I was able to achieve a lot more gain before feedback with this unit than the others. Small foot print, no tripod required and comes with cases and covers. Not that much more expensive if you figure in the cases and tripod. I never thought I would be praising a Bose product on a public forum but I am very impressed with this product. Never been a fan of their home audio stuff.

2. Yamaha - edges out the K10 with slightly smoother mid range, costs less for more speaker. Same features as the QSC. The two are so similar that if you already own a QSC I wouldn't worry about trading them out.

3. QSC - definitely workable but requires more EQ and has the least amount of gain before feedback. Very light weight.

Please forgive my playing, I was trying to rush the recordings while my family was at the grocery store. You might hear what sounds like a little distortion but it is actually the Zoom bouncing on the table. It was quite loud in here.

Bose L1 - https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/giant-bose-l1

QSC - https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/giant-qsc-1

I didn't bring the Yamaha home because it was so similar to the QSC already residing in my living room. Anyway, hope this is helpful.:D
 
#2
Don,

Thanks for the sound clips. Some things (such as resistance to feedback and volume obtained) I take your word for since, as you say, you can't tell this from the recordings. Therefore: strictly in regard to the tone, there is a definate difference between the two PAs, but to my ear it seems that difference might favor the QSC for pizz and the Bose for arco. On pizz I thought the Bose sounded a little bit 'boomy' whereas the QSC was a little more clear or present. What was your impression of that in the room?

Your comments don't say anything about the ART/DPA clips. To me, the ART sounded thin and brittle, with even a bit of a nasel quality. The DPA was much more rich and full. The low arco note sounds like it could really rattle the floor!

Are you planning on buying the Bose based on your test? Have you tried both on a gig yet? As you said, you can get more volume without feedback from the Bose but to my ears the QSC sounds like it mike cut through the mix a bit more.

Whoever said this is going to be easy?

Thanks, again, for taking the time to share this.

Rick
 
#3
rickwolff said:
Don,

Thanks for the sound clips. Some things (such as resistance to feedback and volume obtained) I take your word for since, as you say, you can't tell this from the recordings. Therefore: strictly in regard to the tone, there is a definate difference between the two PAs, but to my ear it seems that difference might favor the QSC for pizz and the Bose for arco. On pizz I thought the Bose sounded a little bit 'boomy' whereas the QSC was a little more clear or present. What was your impression of that in the room?
Click to expand...

It's funny because listening to the recordings I would agree with you that the QSC sounds clearer but standing the room, not only was the Bose much louder, it sounded more like my bass with even less effort tuning the EQ. A sax player friend of mine was over while I was making the recordings and he agreed that the recordings were misleading. I almost didn't post them for that reason but then I thought it might still be educational.

rickwolff said:
Your comments don't say anything about the ART/DPA clips. To me, the ART sounded thin and brittle, with even a bit of a nasel quality. The DPA was much more rich and full. The low arco note sounds like it could really rattle the floor!
Click to expand...

The recordings of the DPA/AMT are from last year in a dedicated studio with no processing whatsoever. The DPA was the clear winner IMO, which is the reason I bought it and sent the other one back. Oh yea, the engineer had some crazy sub-woofer in the listening booth and you could feel the DPA in your soul!

rickwolff said:
Are you planning on buying the Bose based on your test? Have you tried both on a gig yet? As you said, you can get more volume without feedback from the Bose but to my ears the QSC sounds like it mike cut through the mix a bit more.
Click to expand...

I am planning on doing some rehearsals and possibly gigs with the Bose. The QSC is going back. It does have a lot of high-mid detail but I think that cost you when you start hitting that feedback ceiling. Those are the frequencies that I keep dialing back as the gain increases and eventually the preamp can't cut any more.

I think even people that are really digging the powered PA setup will tell you that it won't do for every gig. I am still hoping to put together the "One rig to rule them all!" and I think the Clarus V may be the last remaining piece of that puzzle (due to hit shelves any day now).

Yea, sometimes I want to just buy an Underwood and an Ampeg and just be done with this whole damn thing.

Chasing the dragon!:scowl:
 
#4
Badong said:
I
1. Bose - much easier to dial in tone and control feedback than the other two due to a flatter frequency response, tight-controlled bass, and a high frequency roll off. It may not come across in the recordings but I was able to achieve a lot more gain before feedback with this unit than the others. Small foot print, no tripod required and comes with cases and covers. Not that much more expensive if you figure in the cases and tripod. I never thought I would be praising a Bose product on a public forum but I am very impressed with this product. Never been a fan of their home audio stuff.
Click to expand...

Don,
You're intonation with a bow is stellar, nice tone, strong sound. Listening to this, I hear a fullness to the sound from the Bose and a smooth transition from highs to lows.
I would agree with you that it's a very pleasant sound, to listen to. The edge of the notes are very well balanced with their sustain. You'll have to see how well this works with a band. If it does, then I think you have your rig. It has a very similar sound to my Audiokinesis TC-112 which I use except for really small rooms.

Badong said:
I
3. QSC - definitely workable but requires more EQ and has the least amount of gain before feedback. Very light weight.
Click to expand...

Did you have the QSC elevated on a stand or chair? I've found what you're saying to be true the closer the K8 is to the floor. I also always have it on the flat setting, because with the Ehrlund, you'll get almost instant feedback if the '"Deep Switch" is engaged. You can definitely hear the difference between the two systems, when the QSC transitions from lows and highs, it's not quite a even and smooth as the Bose, and definitely a brighter timber. It would most likely cut through the mix better, but note for note, the Bose is better across all the registers of the instrument. There is one thing about the Bose Performer systems that had me shy away from them.
I have heard from reliable sources, that the internal connectors on that linear array, have tendency to break off, if you're not careful, when you assemble and disassemble the system, and are expensive and difficult to replace. Just my take. I don't receive any compensation from QSC or Bose for that matter.

Ric
 
#5
Badong said:
I think even people that are really digging the powered PA setup will tell you that it won't do for every gig. I am still hoping to put together the "One rig to rule them all!" and I think the Clarus V may be the last remaining piece of that puzzle (due to hit shelves any day now).

Yea, sometimes I want to just buy an Underwood and an Ampeg and just be done with this whole damn thing.
:
Click to expand...

What speaker would you drive with the Clarus V? I am intrigued by the idea of getting my speaker up at ear level without losing bass response which is kind of what got me going with the powered PA speaker in the first plase. If you had the Clarus V would you look at something like Mike Arnopol's 45 or do you have a speaker you already like).

And I have a Lifeline which I run thru my TC BG250 which actually sounds nice as pickups go, but it ain't no microphone.

Rick
 
#6
rickwolff said:
What speaker would you drive with the Clarus V? I am intrigued by the idea of getting my speaker up at ear level without losing bass response which is kind of what got me going with the powered PA speaker in the first plase. If you had the Clarus V would you look at something like Mike Arnopol's 45 or do you have a speaker you already like).

And I have a Lifeline which I run thru my TC BG250 which actually sounds nice as pickups go, but it ain't no microphone.

Rick
Click to expand...

Rick and Don
The new amp head from Acoustic Image will also be called a Flex, as it has the new preamp configuration combined with the power section of the Clarius+. Rick Jones had one at the ISB convention.

Ric
 
#7
Thank you for the kind words.

Ric Vice said:
Did you have the QSC elevated on a stand or chair? I also always have it on the flat setting, because with the Ehrlund, you'll get almost instant feedback if the '"Deep Switch" is engaged.
Click to expand...

The QSC is on a stand at the same relative height as the Bose and set to flat. Both recordings were using the DPA. I haven't spent much time with the EAP yet. It's the closest thing to a mic IMO but still necessitates sonic compromises I don't think I'm ready to make on quiet gigs.

Ric Vice said:
There is one thing about the Bose Performer systems that had me shy away from them. I have heard from reliable sources, that the internal connectors on that linear array, have tendency to break off, if you're not careful, when you assemble and disassemble the system, and are expensive and difficult to replace. Just my take. I don't receive any compensation from QSC or Bose for that matter.
Click to expand...

I agree that the Yamaha and QSC are considerably more rugged.
 
#8
rickwolff said:
What speaker would you drive with the Clarus V?
Click to expand...

I have the MAS45 which I want mount on a tripod. I know it's possible but I need to get in touch with Mike and see if I can do it or if he really wants me to send it back. I know there is a lot of internal plumbing in there and I don't want to drill through something important.

I also want to put the 45 up against the Acme B1 Wedge which comes with a stand mounting cup. I know a lot of guys have abandoned their Acmes for various reasons and I never used my B2 for DB because it didn't sound good with the Realist, but I think it would sound absolutely killer with a mic or the EAP. I guess I'm going to find out as soon as the Clarus comes out.:D

You know, IMO, the 45 sounds better with my Fishman FC than with the EAP (it sounds less like my bass but I can get louder with a tighter more directed sound that isn't tinny). I'm thinking that Lifeline would destroy everything on stage with the 45. Maybe when things get too hairy for the mic I could switch over to the Lifeline and be heard with less frustration.
 
#11
More fun with the Q3.

This one is recorded without an amp, just my bass: https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/no-amp

These excerpts were recorded using one of the following signal chains:

1. Joemeek 3Q, DBX graphic EQ, Fishman Full Circle, Big E MAS45
2. Joemeek 3Q, DBX graphic EQ, Ehrlund with EAP, Bose L1 Compact
3. Joemeek 3Q, DBX graphic EQ, Ehrlund with EAP, Big-E MAS45

Here are the tracks in random order. Can you match them to the chains above?

1. Track 22: https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/22-1

2. Track 19: https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/19-1

3. Track 15: https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/15-1

BTW, in case you hear a baby screaming in the background, that's my daughter suffering some gastric distress on the other side of the house. Don't worry, no children were harmed in the making of these recordings.
 
#13
About 6 feet. There could be some natural bass sound in there but the amps were so loud I'm not sure how much it could have contributed. The EAP does a really good impression of a mic. I'm going to use the Bose and the DPA in rehearsal tonight. We'll see how it goes.
 
#14
I'm going nuts with this recorder and I'm not done yet.:hyper:

Here is a sample of the DPA through the MAS45. I got it to work but I had to really elevate the cabinet and finagle the graphic EQ quite a bit. Not sure how practical it would be on a gig even on a pole mount. Q3 was on the other side of the room about 25' away.

http://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/452-1

Here is a recording of Dave Holland played once through the MAS45 (http://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/dh45) and once through the Bose L1C (http://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/dhb).

Very interesting . . .
 
#15
Badong said:
More fun with the Q3.

This one is recorded without an amp, just my bass: https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/no-amp

These excerpts were recorded using one of the following signal chains:

1. Joemeek 3Q, DBX graphic EQ, Fishman Full Circle, Big E MAS45
2. Joemeek 3Q, DBX graphic EQ, Ehrlund with EAP, Bose L1 Compact
3. Joemeek 3Q, DBX graphic EQ, Ehrlund with EAP, Big-E MAS45

Here are the tracks in random order. Can you match them to the chains above?

1. Track 22: https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/22-1

2. Track 19: https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/19-1

3. Track 15: https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/15-1

BTW, in case you hear a baby screaming in the background, that's my daughter suffering some gastric distress on the other side of the house. Don't worry, no children were harmed in the making of these recordings.
Click to expand...

First of all, Don, you are a monster! You sound great! Also your bass sounds FINE, any amplification you can do to reproduce that fine bass sound is worth the trouble. Also curious, what strings are you using

Now my guesses:

22. To me sounded the most 'muffled' or not clear. I'm going to guess this was the EAP through the 45

19. I'm guessing this is the EAP through the Bose. Whatever it is, I liked it a lot more than 22.

15. I'm going to guess this is the Full Circle. I liked this one best - especially pizz - really sounds like it would cut through very well.

I'm off to a rehearsal but hope I might find the answers when I get back. If you don't want to give it away yet perhaps you'd send me a PM.

I've got a new piece of gear arriving tomorrow that I am VERY anxious to try out and will tell you about it as soon as I can. If it arrives tomorrow I'll use it on the gig tomorrow night.

Rick
 
#16
Badong said:
Here are the tracks in random order. Can you match them to the chains above?
Click to expand...

Not really, I was never good at blindfold tests, they make my head hurt.;) I think the Joe Meek is really smoothing out things, it sure must be a great box. It seems to almost level the playing field completely. :D


Badong said:
BTW, in case you hear a baby screaming in the background, that's my daughter suffering some gastric distress on the other side of the house. Don't worry, no children were harmed in the making of these recordings.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the heads up, I kept looking around my computer room to see where that child was hiding. Hope the she's feeling better.

Ric
 
#17
#18
Now we have some really useful recordings. The Bose held up admirably jamming with my friends. I'm not sure if you can tell from the recordings but the drummer is really bashing and the saxophonist told me he was blowing his lungs out. My ears are still ringing. Keep in mind, we are talking about using a mic at these volumes.

DPA, JoeMeek, GEQ, Bose L1 (https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/oleo)

Switched out the mic for the Ehrlund and asked the trumpet player to play my bass.

EAP, JM, GEQ, Bose (https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/all-blues)

Now you get to say you told me so. The recording comes out a little cleaner than it was in the room. There was definitely some subwoofer/floor coupling going on that was messing with clarity in first position. I'm wondering if an auralex wedge could counteract this phenomenon. I think the room had a resonance around 98hz (G). I had this slider cut by 12db and still excited the space.
 
#19
Badong said:
Thank for the kind words. I am currently running Thomastik Bel Cantos. Great compromise for pizz and arco. Easy to press, easy to bow.

Here are the answers to my listening challenge (may not be what you expect).

Track 15 - EAP through the Bose (https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/15-1)

Track 19 - EAP though the Big E (https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/19-1)

Track 22 - Fishaman FC through Big E (https://soundcloud.com/don-sibley/22-1)

:eyebrow:
Click to expand...

I had the order completely backwards! Maybe I was showing my bias since I've never been sold on the EAP but it sure sounded great in these clips - especially thru the BOSE.

Re: your clips at the session: Wow, the DPA has a beautiful clarity, presence, AND fullness. To me, far more than anything else it really does sound your your bass. If I hadn't known better, I would have thought the EAP clip was a different bass (of lesser quality -like maybe a laminate (Oh Oh, my bias might be showing again.))

Great playing on Oleo, Don. You are a pleasure to listen to.

re: the 98K resonance - I've never had/used one but would a notch filter solve this - perhaps your 12db cut just wasn't enough.

My tracking number shows my new 'toy' is on the truck for delivery to me today. If I were any more excited I might wet my pants. I'll let you know how it works out.

Bottom line: Your bass, your strings, YOUR PLAYING, DPA, Bose (and all the other toys) = PRICELESS.

I think you've found your setup. Keep us posted!!

Rick
 

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