Your one of the lucky ones i guess. I had 5 active basses never went to passive.
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Active tone vs. passive tone
- Thread starter crust_cheese
- Start date
Another reason besides depending on a battery. I think the active basses sound to hi fi digital sounding.
My insights regarding onboard preamps:
1. Unless you're using a cutting edge, fully digital onboard preamp or one that includes built-in effects, the onboard units are all very simple from an electrical engineering standpoint - there's simple (first or maybe second order) tone control and there's modest amplification. There's no compression in these things. At audio frequencies, these simple opamp circuits do not color the sound of the bass - you are hearing the true sound of the bass. The tone stack or elements can be tweaked to be flat or to color the sound of the bass at the neutral settings but these things are not accidents or the 'nature of the beast' - they are the intentions of the designer. Even the little single JFET buffer I designed and built for my passive bass didn't really do much to color the sound despite espousing 'tube-like' qualities.
2. An onboard preamp offers two advantages (which have already been mentioned) - buffering the output and frequency boost/cut - over passive circuits.
3. Batteries are not a reason to stay away from active basses - it's easy to rewire most active basses to use external power. I haven't used a battery in any pedal or active instrument (both bass and guitar) in 4 years. There are other threads on this if you do a search or you can PM me on this and I will show you how to do it. Note that if you do this and choose a poorly designed wall wart for power, you will hear all the noise present in the power supply in your guitar signal so choose wisely when selecting a power supply for this.
4. Passive basses still sound good. The purity of the signal, uncolored by cable loading, with an active bass appeals to me as an engineer but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that passive basses still have great sound. I replaced a preamp with some high freq shelving designed into it with one that had no high frequency shelving (stock EDB 605 preamp vs a Bart Mk2 preamp) and it was a great shock to have all that extra treble come through - it didn't sound good. A simple tweak on the treble knob to tame the highs brought things back into reason but I was surprised that the Bart didn't sound good with the controls all set to the middle detent.
RG
1. Unless you're using a cutting edge, fully digital onboard preamp or one that includes built-in effects, the onboard units are all very simple from an electrical engineering standpoint - there's simple (first or maybe second order) tone control and there's modest amplification. There's no compression in these things. At audio frequencies, these simple opamp circuits do not color the sound of the bass - you are hearing the true sound of the bass. The tone stack or elements can be tweaked to be flat or to color the sound of the bass at the neutral settings but these things are not accidents or the 'nature of the beast' - they are the intentions of the designer. Even the little single JFET buffer I designed and built for my passive bass didn't really do much to color the sound despite espousing 'tube-like' qualities.
2. An onboard preamp offers two advantages (which have already been mentioned) - buffering the output and frequency boost/cut - over passive circuits.
3. Batteries are not a reason to stay away from active basses - it's easy to rewire most active basses to use external power. I haven't used a battery in any pedal or active instrument (both bass and guitar) in 4 years. There are other threads on this if you do a search or you can PM me on this and I will show you how to do it. Note that if you do this and choose a poorly designed wall wart for power, you will hear all the noise present in the power supply in your guitar signal so choose wisely when selecting a power supply for this.
4. Passive basses still sound good. The purity of the signal, uncolored by cable loading, with an active bass appeals to me as an engineer but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that passive basses still have great sound. I replaced a preamp with some high freq shelving designed into it with one that had no high frequency shelving (stock EDB 605 preamp vs a Bart Mk2 preamp) and it was a great shock to have all that extra treble come through - it didn't sound good. A simple tweak on the treble knob to tame the highs brought things back into reason but I was surprised that the Bart didn't sound good with the controls all set to the middle detent.
RG
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D
I've come to learn that in fact the bass itself dictates a bit whether to use a passive tone or an active EQ. On my Dark Twin I, I had a full active circuitry with active EQ installed but I could never find my sound through the EQ, so I reinstalled the passive-like tone control (the electronics is an active EMG J5-set that comes by default with V-V- passive T) and I had my sound instantly.
Where my other bass(es) use the active EQ as set but forget with some minor tweaks along the way.
Where my other bass(es) use the active EQ as set but forget with some minor tweaks along the way.
Then the singers in my band will not be able to use their radio mikes any longer ;-)
Btw of the two gigs I've had battery issues with my active (Musicman) basses in 35 yrs, the singer's stock of 9v batteries saved me and my EBMM Bongo on one - I now carry two spares in my lead box always (though the singers had about 10 spares!!). The other occasion was about 30 yrs ago when on an economy spree my wife bought cheapo ones and the Stingray lost power mid gig!! My fault I guess - but this should show you that a guy with 7 of these basses doesn't view batteries as an issue - the Bongo still had the original (from the factory) batteries which had lasted several years.
I have come to rely on on board EQ to help get my sound, enable tailoring my sound for different songs (in rooms with different characteristics) and to enable adjustment in recording direct to the board. Add it after and it's not as good IMHO.
On the question of noise from pre amps, this has never been a problem with the basses I've used over a 35 yr period (they have all been Musicman of various models and pick up configurations).
The only time I've noticed unacceptable noise on an electric bass has been using bridge single coil pick ups on passive basses - often much worse on the active equivalents of the same basses. So in this case, does the pre amp simply amplify a fundamental problem already present?
I did a simple re-wiring trick to allow the onboard preamp to be powered externally. Both my basses are active but I haven't touched a battery in a pedal or a bass for going on 4 years now. I power my basses from either a Danelectro DA-1, a T-Rex Fuel 'something' Jr., or a no-name 18v wall wart. Same for the one active guitar I own.
PM me if you want the details on how it's done although I've posted this before and there are several threads on it.
Passive vs active. "To each his own." There is no good, better, best. It's like which tastes better, chocolate or vanilla?
IMO, active basses have a buffer and that seems to give a "crispy" high end to the pickup/s which wouldn't normally be there if passive.
Passive is not clear cut either. Pot values. 250k 500k 1 meg affect the sound of the pickups.
The less electronics, the less the signal is affected.
I've always wanted to wire up a Jazz Bass or P Bass so that it runs straight through to the jack, no pots, no volume, no tone control. Just let the pure natural sound of the pickup/pickups do it's thing.
One bassist explained to me a strong reason for active basses. When playing straight through into a board, the active controls allow for tone shaping since there is no bass amp for shaping.
All of my basses are passive except for my Stingray. All of them are my "children".
IMO, active basses have a buffer and that seems to give a "crispy" high end to the pickup/s which wouldn't normally be there if passive.
Passive is not clear cut either. Pot values. 250k 500k 1 meg affect the sound of the pickups.
The less electronics, the less the signal is affected.
I've always wanted to wire up a Jazz Bass or P Bass so that it runs straight through to the jack, no pots, no volume, no tone control. Just let the pure natural sound of the pickup/pickups do it's thing.
One bassist explained to me a strong reason for active basses. When playing straight through into a board, the active controls allow for tone shaping since there is no bass amp for shaping.
All of my basses are passive except for my Stingray. All of them are my "children".
They will quit making 9V batteries about the time civilization collapses and they stop making 120V mains power as well. At that point it is game over for all electronic instruments and we might all just be too busy worrying about finding our next meal to spend much time making music anyway! I would not say that this is bound to happen but the world is changing and it could well happen as it has before. Someone once said that while history does not actually repeat itself as so many believe, it does rhyme....
If some less catastrophic event should eliminate 9V batteries without the collapse of civilization then we will just use whatever replaces 9V batteries and as long as we do have 120V mains power to run our amps we can use external phantom power if nothing else.
Technically speaking this is true but it is also true that well designed electronics affect the signal so little that the point is moot. If you really believed this then your bass would have neither tone control nor volume control. And you would get rid of your amp too.
Meanwhile, everyone who owns a pedal board or tube amp is loudly screaming NUH-UH!!!! Because while more electronics can affect your signal more that can be a Very Good Thing.
If done right, electronics (aka active buffers) help keep your signal from being altered by having too many passive components in the signal chain or having widely-varying components in the chain.
I gotta agree here. I've played a lot of active basses going back a ways. Even owned 2 or 3. Just never got on with them. Obviously, this is not a "right or wrong" kind of situation. "To each his own" as someone else said on here.
I'd also note I've heard any number of active players work wonders with active basses. They can sound great in other people's hands. Just not mine, apparently. (I also think they may just be more suitable to certain types of music perhaps, and perhaps many of those types of music happen to be types of music I don't care for much, or play much.)
Also will state it's been a good 4-5 years since I've done much more than plunk around on an active bass for a little bit here and there at a shop or a buddy's house, so maybe the tech has improved.
But in all the active basses I've personally played and owned, the thing that kills it for me is this hard-to-put-into-words quality to them I can only really classify as "sterile" sounding.
There is something about them, in my experience, that leaves me cold. The poster I quoted who said "too hi fi digital sounding" has expressed it similarly to how I would as well. It's not a technical terminology; it's just a sound-and-feel thing to me.
The corrollary I often use is Dolby Noise Reduction. This was a big deal to a lot of people back in the 80s. I had a lot of high-end stereo component tape decks that had the Dolby option.
Man, I freakin' hated Dolby. While it is true using Dolby on cassettes DID reduce hiss and some unwanted noise, it also imparted a kind of muffled, "in-a-can" quality to tapes as well as cutting off the high end (cymbals would be lost, etc.)
While this phenomenon isn't exactly what I feel actually happens with active basses, it's about as good a metaphor as I can come up with. For me personally, I just ain't interested. I'm not The World's Greatest Player or anything, but I 've never had trouble expressing what I want to express with plain-old passives.
I'd hate to not be able to use my 9V powered bass with my tube amp. What with the world changing so fast.
I only like active basses when their active circuits really affect the way they sound and are part of their inherent sound. I can't stand the clinical sterile sound of say an Ibanez Soundgear with soapbars. All the active controls do is offer another EQ to play with and thats about it. The thread is full with good info on why there indeed is a perceived difference in sound between active and passive instruments.
There are active basses out there that sound substantially different if you were to pull out their active tone circuits. Spectors and Wals (and Alembics, Music Mans etc..) are good examples. I am quite amazed how much of that typical Spector growl resides in its electronics. I upgraded my Epi T-Bird classic with a Spector Tonepump and the bass now sounds completely like a Spector bass. It still has the T-Bird feel to it, but that throaty growl that Spectors are all about is there, unmistakably.
Same with the Wals and their parametric controls, they sound so completely unique. This is impossible with passive basses. This, for me, justifies the 9V hassle and other shortcomings.
There are active basses out there that sound substantially different if you were to pull out their active tone circuits. Spectors and Wals (and Alembics, Music Mans etc..) are good examples. I am quite amazed how much of that typical Spector growl resides in its electronics. I upgraded my Epi T-Bird classic with a Spector Tonepump and the bass now sounds completely like a Spector bass. It still has the T-Bird feel to it, but that throaty growl that Spectors are all about is there, unmistakably.
Same with the Wals and their parametric controls, they sound so completely unique. This is impossible with passive basses. This, for me, justifies the 9V hassle and other shortcomings.
I have one of those too; there was just a thread on this topic: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/ibanez-phat-ii-eq.848511/
First of all, please read my quote carefully, as I did not suggest 'ALL onboard circuits are cheap and inferior to ANY EQ in ANY amp'. That is a general and entirely different statement. I said...does the average cheap Chinese built onboard EQ circuit, sound as good as an EQ that would be found in a high quality hand wired amp? I am of the opinion that no it won't. Should EQ be needed, I would rather fall back on a high quality hand wired amp EQ, than a onboard EQ circuit. But to each their own. If you prefer the sound of your circuit, great. I own many active basses including a late 90's Lakland deluxe 5 with Bart circuit/3 band EQ as well as a Roscoe SKB 3 band EQ. They are crappy, noisy EQ's to my ears and I usually set them flat, or run passive.
So, if you claim a passive instruments tone gets muddier and will not sound as good as an instrument that has a onboard circuit that acts as a buffer, then why would Fodera choose NOT to install a onboard circuit into the AJ Presentation bass? This model was designed with a no expenses spared approach to tone and Vinnie said this bass was THE best sounding bass he has EVER heard.
So, are you saying, had they installed an onboard Pope preamp to buffer, it would sound even better?
I can only give a bit of experience with owning two passive basses and one active.
The active:
My Ibanez ATK305 seems to have a bit lower output than the passives, which I find interesting. It's also the easiest to get a consistent volume while playing, giving the impression of a bit of compression being in play. I wonder if that's because the pickup is further from the strings than on the other two, and while the tone is fine as is (I'd call it beefy, even), maybe I could get some benefit from tweaking it a bit closer. This bass does pick fights with some of my pedals, but I haven't tried it on the VT Bass Deluxe yet. Luckily, of the three, this one delivers the most pleasingly natural tone when I record direct in, no pedal-based tone control or modeling/shaping.
The passive:
MIM Fender J fretless. Not hard to get consistent volume, but I imagine the flats on it lend themselves well to that. With the tone all the way up, it gets a nice, round sound, not too bright and not muddy. And if I dig in, it'll respond and heat things up.
Washburn T24. This one has a pair of sealed j pickups, and it SPITS OUT volume. It's also one seriously bright bass with the tone controls all the way up, a lot brighter than the ATK; they have similar gauges of strings, so I don't think that's a factor. Even with the low side cranked down, the E string is tough to control, and the whole thing takes lots of care (read: proper technique) to deliver a line with consistent volume. That in turn makes me practice more diligently, and sound-wise, I'm thoroughly in love with this bass. It can deliver MORE FIYAH or the mellow jazz tone, and dropping a fuzz on it has been a lot of fun too.
The active:
My Ibanez ATK305 seems to have a bit lower output than the passives, which I find interesting. It's also the easiest to get a consistent volume while playing, giving the impression of a bit of compression being in play. I wonder if that's because the pickup is further from the strings than on the other two, and while the tone is fine as is (I'd call it beefy, even), maybe I could get some benefit from tweaking it a bit closer. This bass does pick fights with some of my pedals, but I haven't tried it on the VT Bass Deluxe yet. Luckily, of the three, this one delivers the most pleasingly natural tone when I record direct in, no pedal-based tone control or modeling/shaping.
The passive:
MIM Fender J fretless. Not hard to get consistent volume, but I imagine the flats on it lend themselves well to that. With the tone all the way up, it gets a nice, round sound, not too bright and not muddy. And if I dig in, it'll respond and heat things up.
Washburn T24. This one has a pair of sealed j pickups, and it SPITS OUT volume. It's also one seriously bright bass with the tone controls all the way up, a lot brighter than the ATK; they have similar gauges of strings, so I don't think that's a factor. Even with the low side cranked down, the E string is tough to control, and the whole thing takes lots of care (read: proper technique) to deliver a line with consistent volume. That in turn makes me practice more diligently, and sound-wise, I'm thoroughly in love with this bass. It can deliver MORE FIYAH or the mellow jazz tone, and dropping a fuzz on it has been a lot of fun too.
Yes, I'm of the same opinion. I just suggest, let's compare stuff of similar quality. If you insist to compare cheap, generic onboards preamps to high quality hand-wired amps, it's obvious that you *want* to prove that onboards circuits are inferior. Otherwise you'd compare high quality hand-wired onboard circuits to high quality hand-wired outboard circuits. No? I never said I prefer an active tone. I said the buffer helps maintain the tone that would otherwise get altered, and therefore my main gigging bass has one. I have some beautiful fully passive basses and love them dearly, however I'm aware of their shortcomings in certain situations.
Over a long cable, yes, passive pickups will get loaded by the capacity of the cable and the tone will mud up. Buffer prevents that. In a studio, with a 1m cable, I do indeed prefer my old passive jazz to anything else.
AJ Presentation. First of all, I don't care for the sound of those basses. I tried two. Now, Vinnie says it's the best sounding? Of course he does, it's the most expensive one, what else should he say? Did he say it sounds best because it doesn't have a preamp? You don't see him however dropping preamps off all other models, do you? Supposedly it would improve the tone of all of them... having said that, doesn't AJ have a balanced DI driver (therefore buffer) despite not having an EQ?
These things are used in countless millions of smoke detectors. We'll have bigger things to worry about than our bass guitars if the 9v battery becomes obsolete.
