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Adding modes to my playing?

that’s easy. In Cmaj the Dm7 functions as a II chord.
I think you've correctly answered my question related to the song, "Lost Without U" in the key of C major.

I think you over analyse it a bit.

I think it's not I (me) that tend to overanalyze modes.
I'm not the one producing never ending "What about Modes" threads at TB while discussing TONAL MUSIC.
 
The people who introduced the idea of using modes to play over changes in tunes with tonal functional harmony have generated endless misunderstanding and confusion. Just use the search engine in TB with keyword "mode" to confirm this.

I believe it is much more fruitful to start from the chord tones (basic tones = root and perfect 5th; guide tones = 3rd and 7th, altered 5th), and to introduce the passing tones (9th, 11th, 13th). For each passing tone, there is a choice among 2 ou 3 notes. How to chose the passing tones is dictated by the harmonic context, but also leaves some freedom to the player according to his/her musical intentions. Depending on the harmonic context, the 9th, 11th and 13th can serve as "color tones" (that can be used as target notes) or be some "avoid note" (an "avoid note" is a note that is dissonant and needs to be resolved, usually by step, to sound good, or that may spoil the harmonic progression). And then there are all the other chromatic (non-diatonic) notes that can be used as passing tones between diatonic notes or as approach notes.

Of course, if you play the all the chords tones and passing tones in ascending order you generate a "mode" to which you can give a fancy name. But in tonal functional harmony, it is this "hierarchy" of notes that matters:
1. basic chord tones (outlined by the bassist)
2. guide tones (giving the quality of the chord, and thus the most important for outlining the progression in a melody or solo)
3. color tones
4. avoid tones
5. non-diatonic tones.

In a modal context, there is a different hierarchy:
1. the tonal center
2. all the other diatonic notes (there is no particular hierarchy among them; there need to be all present for the modal flavour to be expressed).
In particular there is no "avoid note".

So when people tell: "in a ii-V-I progression in C major (Dm7-G7-CMaj7), play the D dorian mode over the ii chord", this is very misleading to the inexperienced musician, because he/she might think: "to make it sound dorian, I will insist on the characteristic note of D dorian, which is B". But by doing so, he/she will spoil the harmonic progression, because B is the most important note of the G7 (the leading tone), and it will sound as if the player had played G7 all over Dm7-G7 (this is a very suitable and very common substitution, but it just spoils the ii-V progression). So B should be treated as an "avoid note" over Dm7, not because it is dissonant with the chord tones, because it anticipates the next chord. To highlight the Dm7-G7 progression, it would be more appropriate to target C over Dm7 and resolve it to B when arriving on G7.

This is all the more confusing when people say "play D dorian over Dm7 and then G mixolydian over G7" and the novice player says: "what the heck, these are all the same notes?". This is because they were not given the important part of the explaination: these are all the same notes, yes, but what matters is that the hierarchy of the notes changes when moving from Dm7 to G7.
 
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And also each mode has certain harmonic progressions or chords that typically belong to that mode.

Typically, that's not true. Modal tunes tend to have much more static harmony, not harmonic progressions. See "So What" "Dolphin Dance" "Flamenco Sketches" etc...
"Lost Without You" is definitely functional, and definitely in the key of C major. That resolution when you listen to it is C, definitely not D.
 
Typically, that's not true. Modal tunes tend to have much more static harmony, not harmonic progressions. See "So What" "Dolphin Dance" "Flamenco Sketches" etc...
"Lost Without You" is definitely functional, and definitely in the key of C major. That resolution when you listen to it is C, definitely not D.
I mostly agree, although the harmony does not need to sit on a single chord to have the mood of a modal tune.

In particular, a vamp that bounces back and forth between 2 chords can very well convey the mood of a mode (if the chords are chosen properly). One of the 2 chords usually has to be the tonic chord to affirm clearly the tonal center, and the other is best chosen to be a 2nd or a 4th away from the tonic (chords that are a 3rd apart from each other have too much overlap to provide interesting contrast). Any pair of chords that evoques a dominant-tonic relationship (e.g. CMaj7 - G7) is best avoided as it would very likely sound tonal (and boringly so, with only 2 chords alternating back and forth ad nauseam).
For example, one could have (either 1 bar, or 2 bars for each chord):
- for ionian: IMaj7 - IVMaj7 (C ionian: CMaj7 - Fmaj7)
- for lydian: IMaj7 - II7 (C lydian: CMaj7 - D7)
- for mixolydian: I7 - ii7 (C mixolydian: C7 - Dm7)
- for dorian: i7 - IV7 (C dorian: Cm7 - F7) (although this might superficially looks the same as a ii-V progression in Bb, it does not sound like tonal functional harmony, because the F7 never resolves to BbMaj)
- for aeolian: i7 - iv7 (C aeolian: Cm7 - Fm7)
- for phrygian: i7 - bIIMaj7 (C phrygian: Cm7 - DbMaj7).

And one can also create longer modal chord successions (I prefer not calling this a chord progression), eg. with 4 chords. The main point is (1) to have the repetitive character of a succession of chords that cycles continuously without going anywhere else than back to the tonal center, and (2) to avoid any succession of chords that would be evocative of tonal functional harmony.
 
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(It's the last Robin Thicke song to be quoted by me.:thumbsup:)

"Ask Myself" by Robin Thicke got my attention by its subtle rhythmic arrangement - there is so much space to "breathe," but...
I've developed a strange "feeling" that I should (Why?) :help: add (or change) "something" to that bass-line - without any Youtube-ization, trying not to disturb that serene subtlety of the arrangement.

The song's harmony was kind of easy to guess - It's in the key of A minor (natural), but there are a few chords that could provoke some "thinking", and a guitar player would ask, "What mode should I play over this/that chord?"

Chorus and Verse have the same chord progression:

Amin7 - Gmin7/C9 - Fmaj7/F6 - E7(b9)/Bb9(b5)
and back to Amin7.

Bridge:
Cmaj7 - Dmin7 - Emin7 - Fmaj7.

Now, a guitar player would ask,
"What should I play over Gmin7/C7(C9) chords? Probably, G Dorian?"

"Where that Gmin7 comes from in the key of A (natural)?"

"If we have C7(or C9), then, it's not A natural minor?"

"How that Bb7 (or B9b5) got here? What mode should I use for it?"

"If we have that Gmin7 chord - plus, that Bb9(b5) at the end of the cadence - with Bb, maybe it's A Phrygian?"


 
But in tonal functional harmony, it is this "hierarchy" of notes that matters:
1. basic chord tones (outlined by the bassist)
2. guide tones (giving the quality of the chord, and thus the most important for outlining the progression in a melody or solo)
3. color tones
4. avoid tones
5. non-diatonic tones.

After years of exploration I landed on a much shorter hierarchy:
1. root
2. chord tones
3. "other tones" , guided by style, ears and experience

My logic comes form the experience that, after root and chord tones, the biggest factor of what sounds right for a song is the style or genre of music. Building a bass line from I to IV will be different in country vs funk, for example.

Many players look to theory to answer "what do I play over these changes?"
But, once you get past learning your arpeggios, I think the bets answer is to learn what the greats have done for a particular style.
 
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After years of exploration I landed on a much shorter hierarchy:
1. root
2. chord tones
3. "other tones" , guided by ears and experience
Sure, that works and whether a finer grid is worth considering or not depends on the style of music as you say.

In jazz for example, if you play a G (the 5th) over a CMaj7 chord, that is really fine and consonnant, but playing an E (the major 3rd) is harmonically more interesting; and playing an A (the major 6th) over CMaj7 sounds quite nice, whereas if you play an F (the 4th/11th), it really wants to resolve to the E next to it.
 
This is all the more confusing when people say "play D dorian over Dm7 and then G mixolydian over G7"

It's only confusing until you grasp that you are simply playing diatonically. You can think of it as all the notes of the C major scale or you can break it down into the individual relative modes. It's just different ways of thinking about the same notes.

IMHO it's actually a good idea to use multimodal learning: Learning the same information in different ways. An advantages of multimodal learning is each person has a different way of thinking. The point here is the best way of thinking about music for you may not be the best way of thinking for someone else.

IMHO, an important distinction is you play a D Dorian box shape over Dm7 (ii), rather than simply playing the Dorian mode. In other words, you don't necessarily start on D or play D,E,F,G,A,B,C. As @Whousedtoplay showed, it relates more to understanding the shape of the D Dorian fret box, so you can shred without actually thinking about all of the notes names.

What you play may even be closer to a different mode. For example, maybe you will use the Dorian fret box, but play a linear line up from F...meaning the notes you play resemble F Lydian more than D Dorian. But none of the listeners will be aware of your mental process anyway. They will only hear the notes of C Major, regardless of how you think about it.

Do I use this approach when playing? For the most part no, at least not on a conscious level. But I used to practice the standard modes. I did it two ways. Some times I would pick a key and play through the relative modes. IE, in the key of C I would play C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian, B Locrian

Other times I would pick a note and play through the parallel modes. IE, C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian, C Mixolydian, C Aeolian, C Locrian. You can relate each mode diatonically to it's relative major key, or you can think of it i terms of the fret box shapes that is used for each mode. You can also sort the modes into mostly major or minor shapes and think about how they vary from the major or natural minor scale. For example C Dorian is the same as C natural minor with a major (raised) 6th. C Mixolydian is the same as C major with a minor (lowered) 7th.

For me, the idea was to learn the keys inside out by studying the shapes and sounds of the modes. It was about training the mind, ears, and hands, and not just a mental exercise.

I wouldn't say I ever mastered modes, but do believe my study of modes was worthwhile and helped me to become a better player. While I don't usually think consciously about modes when I am playing, I am confident that practicing them shaped the unconscious processes I use to play. So in this context, I do use modes, I just don't think about it.
 
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Someone with better knowledge than me might correct me here, but learning modes as a means to help play more melodic passages and playing “modal music” are two very different things.
Happy Birthday’s melody is mixolydian but I wouldn’t call it “modal music.”
 
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Someone with better knowledge than me might correct me here, but learning modes as a means to help play more melodic passages and playing “modal music” are two very different things.
Happy Birthday’s melody is mixolydian but I wouldn’t call it “modal music.”

I think it all starts with that question, "What other notes could I play with this/that chord?"
And the easiest way to answer that question (without getting too deep into Harmony) is by using mode names that come with the "pre-set" fingering patterns/templates for this/that mode.
 
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In pop music modal tunes don't have to be static though.

Here is one of the important points that separates Tonal Music from Modal Music.

In Modal Music,
"All the chord sequences and cadences typical of the corresponding major scale (Ionian
mode) must be avoided at all costs, because they convey the feeling of the major scale,
and
will destroy the modal feel.
 
Here is one of the important points that separates Tonal Music from Modal Music.

In Modal Music,
"All the chord sequences and cadences typical of the corresponding major scale (Ionian
mode) must be avoided at all costs, because they convey the feeling of the major scale,
and
will destroy the modal feel.

That's not to say modal music cannot use harmonic progression:

Lesson 19: Modal Harmony - Dorian Mode (flupe.com)
 
That's not to say modal music cannot use harmonic progression:

Lesson 19: Modal Harmony - Dorian Mode (flupe.com)

I think we've gone through that Modal Schemas "confusion" earlier in the thread.
"Many pop songs use harmonic progressions that imply modes other than major/minor."

Dorian shuttle: i–IV

"The dorian mode is especially associated with funk, disco, and its derivative genres, where the dorian shuttle is especially pervasive.
One example of many is “Dance, Dance, Dance” by CHIC (1979). Some people who haven’t listened to much music from these genres have trouble aurally recognizing the dorian shuttle and hear it instead as ii–V. Listening to a lot of funk and disco should help you learn to hear that “ii chord” as a i chord, even in more ambiguously dorian songs like Daft Punk’s “Get Lucky...”
 
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Here is one of the important points that separates Tonal Music from Modal Music.

In Modal Music,
"All the chord sequences and cadences typical of the corresponding major scale (Ionian
mode) must be avoided at all costs, because they convey the feeling of the major scale,
and
will destroy the modal feel.

Not sure where that quote is from but that does not say anything by itself. It says chord sequences that are typical of that corresponding major scale should be avoided when playing modes. That’s true, because you use other sequences that are specific for that mode.

just two three simple examples:
Say we have this sequence C-D-C-D. That is a I-II-I-II progression in C Lydian.

Or G-F-Am-G. That’s I-VII-II-I in G Mixolydian

Or Em-D-Bm-C is I-VII—V-VI in E Aeolian.

Or the examples in Wasnex’s post link. These are all MODAL progressions, not sequences that imply modes.
 
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Say we have this sequence C-D-C-D. That is a I-II-I-II progression in C Lydian.

Or G-F-Am-G. That’s I-VII-II-I in G Mixolydian

Or Em-D-Bm-C is I-VII—V-VI in E Aeolian.



I think we are discussing two different things - Tonal Music and Modal Music.
I'm talking about the Modes in TONAL music (primarily, Pop music) while you are talking about Modal Music.
I have nothing else to add to this thread.

P.S. Years ago, I used to post a lot of comments at TB, and, now, I'm, kind of, ashamed of it.:thumbsdown: :rollno:
"Vanity of vanities," said Ecclesiastes 1:2

While I was posting my comments at TB, Les Fret has published 2 books and recorded/released two solo albums.:thumbsup:
 
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The OP will not really hear and understand the modes if you guys keep on this tangent of deriving if from C major or G major, because you are moving the tonal center along ( as in all white keys in C )
So instead of saying Dorian is DEFGABCD, keep the root in C

C Dorian is
CDEbFGABbC
vs Aeolian
CDEbFGAbBbC

You can probably say that this will work for minor chords.

and Lydian is just a raised 4th
CDEF#GABC

more illustrative than saying it's FGABCDEF

And no need to get into Chord Scales and extensions (like b9 #9). It's a good display of your knowledge but won't really tell the student what the modes are about. It's like drinking from a firehose. No wonder the OP said this.

Small elusive notes that gravitate to bass giants like pilot fish; yet run away from us mere mortals.
I would say this is the second step imo ;-)