Adding modes to my playing?

[Papageno]

That’s a hard one. Could be both G or A. But if I have to pick one it would be A. So bVII-I

What you say is really interesting.

I believe there is a certain ambiguity related to the fact that both chords have essentially the same "weight". So while I hear the tonal center to be A, it does not surprise me that others can be hesitant or hear G as the tonal center.

In some sense, this is an harmonic analog to visual illusion of pictures in which people see different things, like the one below in which some people see a young woman and others an old one.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I believe there is a certain ambiguity related to the fact that both chords have essentially the same "weight". So while I hear the tonal center to be A, it does not surprise me that others can be hesitant or hear G as the tonal center.

The melody, kind of, almost weaves/arpeggiates the D major chord, pushing my opinion towards D major as our Tonic.

 

[Les Fret]

What you say is really interesting.

I believe there is a certain ambiguity related to the fact that both chords have essentially the same "weight". So while I hear the tonal center to be A, it does not surprise me that others can be hesitant or hear G as the tonal center.

In some sense, this is an harmonic analog to visual illusion of pictures in which people see different things, like the one below in which some people see a young woman and others an old one.

View attachment 5322025

Exactly. It’s very hard to tell in this song what the tonal center is. But this ambiguity is precisely the charm of it. Do we really need to know the tonal center? and why? That’s also an interesting question.

I see the young lady and had to do my best to see the old lady by the way.

 

[mambo4]

Do we really need to know the tonal center? and why?

I would say it's not 100% necessary
Certainly not as necessary as knowing the chords involved

But having some idea of a tonal center , combined with some theory, can point you to ideas you might not otherwise consider.

I guess that even applies with an ambiguous tonal center: Could be D or could be A? well, now you have two tonal centers to experiment with, and put to the ear test.

 

[MrLenny1]

Scott Divine of SBL has a video ,The most important scale,
that explains modes.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But to be honnest, to me that Beatles tune is not tonal music.

There is a new Dua Lipa song, "Houdini."
Nothing special, but...

For this/that reason, the arranger has decided to have bass as pedal point - D - while the harmony is changing.

The bass pedal point last up to 2:17 of the video.
(There are just two short spots where the bass plays C.)

While the bass is "pedaling" D, the keys are playing different (diatonic) chords:
Dmin7 - Gmin9/D - C9/D - C
Dmin7 - Gmin9/D - C9/D - C/Fmaj9

Due to "permanent" bass pedaling, it sounds like some Modal drone.
That bass "drone" creates a sensation of Modal Music.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The Beatles: C Mixolydian
Hall en Oates: B Mixolydian

Keep 'em coming. I like these little quizzes!

The following is a reggae song from FORTUNATE YOUTH - NO PLACE ABOVE.

It's clearly in D minor.
The chords in Intro/Verse are:

Dmin7 x 4
G7 | G7 | Dmin7 | Dmin7
Amin | G | Dmin7 | Dmin7

Do you hear that Dorian mode when the harmony moves from Dmin7 to G7?

 

[Prodigus Filius]

Modes only have expression if the tonal centre is based on the tonic note of the mode. You see the mistake all the time when someone starts playing D dorian for example over a tonal centre based around C major. It will just be playing the C major scale but starting on D. If however the tonal centre was shifted to D minor and lateral movement between say Emin and back to Dmin, or G7 to D minor and constantly referencing D minor as the focal point, than D dorian will sound distinct . Why? Because the harmony being used ie non-cadential lateral movement back and forth from Dm to Emin or Dm to G7 is using the B in those chords to highlight what gives Dorian its' distinctive and defining characteristic ie the natural 6 as distinct from Phrygian and Aeolian which have a flat 6th. To recap. If you want to play modally, match the underlying tonal centre with the mode tonic and put some focus on the specific note that makes the mode you have chosen to elevate distinct from the other modes.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I like these little quizzes!

Here is Jordan Rakei's new song, "Freedom."
We have two chords - Ebmaj7(or Ebmaj9) and Dmin11/G. Please be advised that those two chords could have different voicings.

(Sometimes, there is a pick up chord between those as Bbmaj7(orBbmaj9.)

The bass plays just Eb and G with some walking notes to a new chord.

It means we have just Eb major and G minor chord movement.

My questions.
Is this song Tonal or Modal.
What is the key of the song - Eb or G minor?





The next Hip-Hop song - Tate McRae - think later, has two chords:
Db major and D major.

Is this song Tonal or Modal.

 

[Groove Doctor]

To me modes are extra cognitive overhead when it comes to learning harmony, prematurely sending beginners down unnecessary rabbit holes. My advice is to Lean the execution, familiarize your self with their sound, but don't stress out about "how to use modes" because at the end of the day you use them when you want that mode's sound, and that's it.

100% agree…. for beginners.

Also agree with “when you want that modes’ sound”. That’s essentially why you choose those notes.

 

[Groove Master]

The next Hip-Hop song - Tate McRae - think later, has two chords:
Db major and D major.

Is this song Tonal or Modal.

This tune is based on the fifth mode of F# minor harmonic. So it is tonal in my book.

For the other tune I hear it in Gmin.

 

[Papageno]

This tune is based on the fifth mode of F# minor harmonic. So it is tonal in my book.

Interesting. It seems we have different understanding of what is modal and what is tonal.

How do you define "tonal music"?

 

[Groove Master]

Interesting. It seems we have different understanding of what is modal and what is tonal.

How do you define "tonal music"?

Well for those examples posted above I can hear and analyse functions for the chords progression. If we look at the C# and D chords they are 2 different modes. It is not like So What for example.

If we have I-VI-II-V in C are we gonna call it modal? I hope not !! lol

 

[Groove Doctor]

It's a good display of your knowledge but won't really tell the student what the modes are about. It's like drinking from a firehose.

Great analogy.

you don't "add modes to your playing". It's about having an understanding of them, but not 'thinking' about them. you don't want to show up to the gig and 'apply' them here and there. It's like, learn it, internalize it, and then forget it and just play freely.

Exactly.

I am convinced someone told bass players about modes so they'd be fired faster.

Gold !!

Also in jazz, you are free to use all sorts of scales that vary somewhat from the prevailing key signature. There are of course conventions for how you do this. But the ability to play "out" is not only accepted, it's generally expected.

Very true.

Pop songs are mostly Consonant, and avoid Dissonance. It is a beautiful thing to add a little tasteful dissonance to a Pop song. Shows mastery of your craft.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

If we look at the C# and D chords they are 2 different modes.

The following is a track from Michael Wollny's "Vienna Pitch."
The harmonic template of the track is based on two chords, but, of course, Michael Wollny uses lots of substitutions, chord "additives."
I think it's Dmin and Emin


Would you say it's Modal or Tonal?

 

[Groove Master]

The following is a track from Michael Wollny's "Vienna Pitch."
The harmonic template of the track is based on two chords, but, of course, Michael Wollny uses lots of substitutions, chord "additives."
I think it's Dmin and Emin


Would you say it's Modal or Tonal?

I don't know. It's improvisation over two chords and modulates later. It could be parallel harmony, it could be modal but no, I wouldn't consider this tonal. It's all over the place. It's a canvas. The longest part is on the white notes so it's based on Dorian and chromaticism ;-)

 

[Schlyder]

modes aren't very important for us bassists. ...as important as knowing the alphabet by reciting it starting on a different letter than A ...would be to be able to write a novel.
... such as TUVWXYZABCDE...QRS or DEFG....XYZABC.
There is no mystery to them, unless you have a very limited knowledge of music theory/harmony. Just like the alphabet is no mystery to people who aren't illiterate.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Any TB thread about modes is like opening a well shook can of beer.

….there are many opinions about the value and application of modes.
Foaming up and spilling all over.

Great analogy It’s comparable to talking about politics or religion with all the vitriol and condescension that spews out.

It’s one of the worst taught things about music, to be completely honest. It brings out the worst in people for no valid reason whatsoever.

 

[Papageno]

Well for those examples posted above I can hear and analyse functions for the chords progression. If we look at the C# and D chords they are 2 different modes. It is not like So What for example.

If we have I-VI-II-V in C are we gonna call it modal? I hope not !! lol

Thank you for clarifying your point.

To me, "tonal music" refers to music built upon functional harmony, organized around the functions of "tonic", "dominant", "predominant".

So I-vi-ii-V is tonal music for me (I-vi = tonic, ii= predominant, V = dominant progressing back to the tonic).

By contrast, C# - D does not have any tonic-dominant progression needed for tonal function harmony. I would not call that "tonal music". It's more likely belong to "parallel harmony"...

 

[Groove Master]

Thank you for clarifying your point.

To me, "tonal music" refers to music built upon functional harmony, organized around the functions of "tonic", "dominant", "predominant".

So I-vi-ii-V is tonal music for me (I-vi = tonic, ii= predominant, V = dominant progressing back to the tonic).

By contrast, C# - D does not have any tonic-dominant progression needed for tonal function harmony. I would not call that "tonal music". It's more likely belong to "parallel harmony"...

May be, but I don't see it as parallel harmony since the two major chords don't have the same structure but they do share the same scale source. I'm more interested at knowing what is "under the hood".