advice for discussing some thoughts with a guitar player

[pepj]

Bands with the same goals and consisting of grown ups dont waste time fighting.
They either want to do it and realise compromise is apart of it.

Minor spats are ok...but more than that people know there is another/better deal elsewhere and do that instead.

Flogging a dead horse is what people do if there are no options and your energy is better spent working out why that is so.

 

[Sierra Hotel]

Before any discussion with a lead guitarist you must hit them over the top of their head with your bass. Then he'll listen . . .

 

[Beej]

It's kinda been said, but I've successfully addressed this problem by standing across the room from my bass amp so it faces me, and fawning over how great it sounds. I've then suggested they try it, and in most cases, they love the tone, and end up turning it down because it's blasting them in the face. This has honestly worked several times.

 

[pepj]

I'd be concerned that you need to resort to these tricks of the trade. In an ideal world the gtr you have selected will need minimum direction or reminder re volume. Otherwise, why select them in the first place.

However...not all worlds are ideal.
But the first thing I'd notice once the gtr started playing would be how willing they were to listen...and drop out of the song in parts.

If he is a gtr who insists he must always drive the song.... and three pieces are notorious for this..then he isn't the guy you want. ime.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Too many Stevie Ray Vaughan-abees who accept nothing less than guitar being first and foremost in the mix at all times, with solos being earsplittingly loud. I suspect that they have hearing loss in the frequency range of their guitar (or maybe across the board, who knows). I've worked with one for close to 20 years now. Excellent player, always comes prepared, but his volume is crazy.

I have spoken to the guitarist about it, but he's convinced the problem is the drummer (who is also loud), and me (though he doesn't say it to my face). I know the problem isn't me: I play in other bands, and am rarely asked to adjust my volume (when I am, it can be to turn up as well as down). Bottom line: he listens to harder rock where guitar is loudest in the mix, so that's his norm.

At least at gigs we (sometimes) have a soundman to help keep him under control, but rehearsal can be nuts. Originally, only his guitar rig was too loud. Then we acquired a lead singer who said "I'll put you through the PA so you won't have to run your guitar rig so loud". That worked OK until that lead singer retired and was replaced by a new one unwilling to rock the boat. As you all have guessed: the guitarist is now too loud in the PA as well as his guitar amp. Genie's out of the bottle, no way of taking away his PA support. I actually tried, saying "we will hear the singer better if you stay out of the PA", but no dice of course.

Sometimes I think of quitting, but they are getting fewer gigs (in part because I'm getting more from my other projects), and fortunately they don't rehearse very often (in part because I make myself less available). So I don't have to deal with him as much as I used to.

Thank you for tolerating my rant.

 

[pepj]

Why don't you sack him?
Surely you aren't the only one who finds him too loud?
Failing that...I'd be gone.

 

[Pocket Dave]

Too many Stevie Ray Vaughan-abees who accept nothing less than guitar being first and foremost in the mix at all times, with solos being earsplittingly loud. I suspect that they have hearing loss in the frequency range of their guitar (or maybe across the board, who knows). I've worked with one for close to 20 years now. Excellent player, always comes prepared, but his volume is crazy.

I have spoken to the guitarist about it, but he's convinced the problem is the drummer (who is also loud), and me (though he doesn't say it to my face). I know the problem isn't me: I play in other bands, and am rarely asked to adjust my volume (when I am, it can be to turn up as well as down). Bottom line: he listens to harder rock where guitar is loudest in the mix, so that's his norm.

At least at gigs we (sometimes) have a soundman to help keep him under control, but rehearsal can be nuts. Originally, only his guitar rig was too loud. Then we acquired a lead singer who said "I'll put you through the PA so you won't have to run your guitar rig so loud". That worked OK until that lead singer retired and was replaced by a new one unwilling to rock the boat. As you all have guessed: the guitarist is now too loud in the PA as well as his guitar amp. Genie's out of the bottle, no way of taking away his PA support. I actually tried, saying "we will hear the singer better if you stay out of the PA", but no dice of course.

Sometimes I think of quitting, but they are getting fewer gigs (in part because I'm getting more from my other projects), and fortunately they don't rehearse very often (in part because I make myself less available). So I don't have to deal with him as much as I used to.

Thank you for tolerating my rant.

So, unlike the OP, this is a somewhat-gigging band.

This would way overstep my boundaries. Sounds like it does yours too.

In my experience, the problem with many guitarists who want to be first and foremost in the mix is they also want to be first and foremost in note selection - least and lowest in providing space. IOW, they make themselves a mortal enemy of dynamics - they constantly pummel everyone with too damn many notes.

I find it draining.

Is this your "excellent player" guitarist? If so, I'd question your use of the word. If not - if it's only a volume problem, maybe only accept outdoor festival and large-room venue gigs with him where you can be on opposite ends of large stages.

Either way, I'd probably be taking your route, being "less available" for those gigs - not available at all if it's both a volume and too-many-notes issues.

 

[BassicJazzy]

So, unlike the OP, this is a somewhat-gigging band.

This would way overstep my boundaries. Sounds like it does yours too.

In my experience, the problem with many guitarists who want to be first and foremost in the mix is they also want to be first and foremost in note selection - least and lowest in providing space. IOW, they make themselves a mortal enemy of dynamics - they constantly pummel everyone with too damn many notes.

I find it draining.

Is this your "excellent player" guitarist? If so, I'd question your use of the word. If not - if it's only a volume problem, maybe only accept outdoor festival and large-room venue gigs with him where you can be on opposite ends of large stages.

Either way, I'd probably be taking your route, being "less available" for those gigs - not available at all if it's both a volume and too-many-notes issues.

Yes, one reason why any really good professional band usually travels with their own sound engineer. Especially important if you have mismatched or clashing egos. I remember a live performance taped of Pearl Jam's "Black" where Eddie Vetter is filmed threatening the sound man in his booth midway back in the audience before the song starts. Something like "Bill, you hear me......Bill....better fix this, I mean it, Bill." Maybe Eddie was upset because his auto-tune had suddenly gone out? Or, perhaps he could hear his own voice for the first time?

Yeah, you guessed it, not a PJ fan, though I like that one song.

 

[Fuzzbass]

So, unlike the OP, this is a somewhat-gigging band.

This would way overstep my boundaries. Sounds like it does yours too.

In my experience, the problem with many guitarists who want to be first and foremost in the mix is they also want to be first and foremost in note selection - least and lowest in providing space. IOW, they make themselves a mortal enemy of dynamics - they constantly pummel everyone with too damn many notes.

I find it draining.

Is this your "excellent player" guitarist? If so, I'd question your use of the word. If not - if it's only a volume problem, maybe only accept outdoor festival and large-room venue gigs with him where you can be on opposite ends of large stages.

In any event, I too would probably be taking your route and become "less available" for those gigs - not available at all if it's both a volume and too-many-notes issues.

The guitarist has some good soft skills, but fair point, I'll retract "excellent player". His best quality is "excellent technique". He can play SRV, Van Halen, Satriani, "Cliffs of Dover" by Eric Johnson. He has in fact gotten better at dynamics now that we're not playing heavy rock all the time. That said: our new-as-of-last-year lead singer plays Variax synth guitar, adding rhythm guitar or faux keys/strings to some tunes. Unfortunately the guitarist has a difficult time doing nothing when that's exactly what he should be doing, say on an intro or quiet bridge.

Even though he isn't on the extreme end of the dynamics/volume spectrum, it is still draining as you say. See below on why I won't quit entirely.

Why don't you sack him?
Surely you aren't the only one who finds him too loud?
Failing that...I'd be gone.

Re sacking him: as noted just above the guitarist has excellent chops and would be extremely difficult to replace. On top of that, the guitarist, drummer, and I have been gigging together for close to two decades... so, it's kind of a dysfunctional family thing. Just as importantly, the band has a dependable following, which is why they remain booked at a couple of venues.

Re anyone else noticing: the drummer is also loud and clueless about the guitarist. The newish lead singer is unwilling to stand up for himself. So that leaves me, and he won't listen to me. However he will usually listen to the sound tech when we have one, so that's something.

Bottom line: because gigs/rehearsals are so intermittent, and I've become chummy with many in our fan base, I will leave room for this band. At most it'll be 8 gigs and 10 rehearsals for 2026. Probably fewer.

 

[pepj]

Excellent chops don't mean much if he kills the band in other ways.
Plenty of technical gtrs here...and a few in particular, but they do not play in the best bands because the best bands don't want that OTT out of place stuff. Even the one guy who can do stuff most can only dream of does not get asked..
Taste tops everything.... and this one guy ..as techically talented as he is, just does not have it.

 

[Pocket Dave]

Excellent chops don't mean much if he kills the band in other ways.
Plenty of technical gtrs here...and a few in particular, but they do not play in the best bands because the best bands don't want that OTT out of place stuff. Even the one guy who can do stuff most can only dream of does not get asked..
Taste tops everything.... and this one guy ..as techically talented as he is, just does not have it.

Says it all IME.

I do guitar gigs too and probably get called more than those guys because I listen and try to serve the song.

Still it's more fun to play bass (and comment about OTT guitarists no one wants to play with - LOL)

 

[BassicJazzy]

Says it all IME.

I do guitar gigs too and probably get called more than those guys because I listen and try to serve the song.

Still it's more fun to play bass (and comment about OTT guitarists no one wants to play with - LOL)

I agree too, and the same can be said about OTT bassists. Some of the guys doing technical gymnastics really turn me off. Lot to be said for tasty chops, knowing when not to play, and choosing the right notes and phrases.

 

[Pocket Dave]

I agree too, and the same can be said about OTT bassists. Some of the guys doing technical gymnastics really turn me off. Lot to be said for tasty chops, knowing when not to play, and choosing the right notes and phrases.

I'm by no means in the top percent on bass, but I get called - probably more often than not as a "safe bet". I like to think that's because I try to listen and play the way I'd want in my own band's bassist.

 

[pepj]

When picking a replacement, the number 1 consideration, imv, is does he fit the band style.
This is why our song choices 'conform' because they are chosen to fit the singer.
The players are chosen to fit that too.
If the vibe of the band is cool, chilled and funky, we want a Ray Parker Jnr. However, if they have the taste and chops like Lukather, we want the groove less the flash. Players like him, Huff and Thompson fit.. and basically owned the studio for 20 years because they know the time and place.

That mindset pretty much disqualifies 60% of gtrs here straight away...probablyvwzy more.
You think you also extend that to the other players up for consideration.
Not saying that anyone is perfect...we are playing local for the most part, and also the fine tune in this regard might go over many bookers heads... and very often does not lead to better rates, but its a pride and purpose thing.
This is why the same guys..and girls end up in the same units. They can bring their thing to the party.

 

[KenSmithFan]

This is the problem with playing with friends - when it comes time to tell them where the bear pooped in the buckwheat, nobody wants to do it.

He plays too loud and doesn’t pay attention. Good luck fixing that.

 

[Jay Corwin]

SO have been playing with a group of guys for about a year now. We all get along (some of us were friends outside of this before) and it sa good hang and great jam situation. its close to home, dedicated space in the drummers garage and we play music I enjoy. We could easily gig (we sound pretty good) but no one really has a desire much for gigging. More so a weekly jam hang to play and enjoy ourselves. We also record everything via multi track so its something cool to listen to, and use as a tool to improve my playing.
My main problem is our lead guitar player. Despite our best efforts hes always at 11 by the end of the night. He also seems to get lost in his own jam/solos/ideas and loses direction from the rest of the band at times. As we go from song to song he often misses cues because hes so wrapped up in his own playing. He's a friend and I dont want to make it personal, but I think we could get to the next level if we were to listen better to each other (we playly mostly jam band/ jam based music). How Do I bring this up with him without making a rift?

I'm in a similar situation. My side project original band is with a best friend, who is the guitarist/singer and principle song writer. I say principle because he comes up with a lot verse, chorus, and nothing else. After that, I step in and arrange, write intros, bridges, endings, and the solos are all on bass at this point. He's not a lead player.

We caught a really good drummer a couple of months ago, so I began recording rehearsals so we could all listen to what's going on, memorize the arrangements (they aren't complicated - it's alt rock/punkish stuff), fix our own parts, etc. From the get go, I could tell the guitar player was only practicing to a drum machine and not listening to the full arrangements we developed as a band (I've also encouraged the drummer to give input). He would keep reverting back to his overly basic structures, miss other bits completely, play in crap time with the drummer and I, and completely ignore dynamics.

So......I finally went off on him at the last rehearsal. Luckily we are really good friends, so it's not as bad as it may sound confrontationally. At one point he tried to pull the "I'm playing it how I wrote it" or "this is how we always play it". I'm like, no listen to the recordings. Finally he admitted that he had no idea how to use google drive where I share everything we work on. Needless to say, I was more than a little cranky hearing that.

After we finished practice, and I was less hot we had an adult conversation. Number one, if you ignore my input - I'm bouncing. Number two, if you didn't know how to access the stuff - all you had to do is say so and we'd find a different way to get you the MP3's.

Guitar players.......I really can't stand 90% of them.

 

[tiktok@sprintma]

yea everyone is in agreement with me. Weve tried this before but it seems to just last oone hour or two then back to blasting

Keep jam nights to...two hours.

 

[Bill the Cat]

Been in a few post rock bands, we jammed a lot. Much better than bands that cant, because writing and talent is usually rather dry.

But we also wrote songs, and had a set then jam.
Been around a few good guitar players, that just jam and go nowhere. And that is where it ends.
Also had guitar players that just keep turning up, and also been in bands with 3 guitar players and they had the mindset to work and balance.

Is what it is, did the jam thing for 2 years with some friends. After leaving, that is where I found 3 better guitar players and a good writer.
Most people complain about drummers too loud, opposite couldn't find drummers loud enough. Or drummers that can deal with many many changes.
To much noodle is too much noodle. Nobody cares it doesn't strike any emotion. Jam bands eventually need a dominant player that can introduce writing and changes.

 

[51PRI]

SO have been playing with a group of guys for about a year now. We all get along (some of us were friends outside of this before) and it sa good hang and great jam situation. its close to home, dedicated space in the drummers garage and we play music I enjoy. We could easily gig (we sound pretty good) but no one really has a desire much for gigging. More so a weekly jam hang to play and enjoy ourselves. We also record everything via multi track so its something cool to listen to, and use as a tool to improve my playing.
My main problem is our lead guitar player. Despite our best efforts hes always at 11 by the end of the night. He also seems to get lost in his own jam/solos/ideas and loses direction from the rest of the band at times. As we go from song to song he often misses cues because hes so wrapped up in his own playing. He's a friend and I dont want to make it personal, but I think we could get to the next level if we were to listen better to each other (we playly mostly jam band/ jam based music). How Do I bring this up with him without making a rift?

Well, I don't know how much I would worry about it if we are just jamming. It's a different story if the band is rehearsing for gigging. Either way, ask him/tell him/make him lean his amplifier back at an angle so that the speakers are hitting him directly in the ears. This usually results in both better volume and tone.